Pumping water from the rad overflow

[Doherto]

Hi, i a recent new member having bought a part restored 240 to finish. When purchased I heard her running ok but it was not possible to drive as she was on sorn. Now i have her in my garage the first job was to renew the tickover return springs one of which was missing and the other stretched. To do this i removed the twin HS6's which are fitted to what i believe is a 3.4 inlet manifold. This manifold obstructed the access to the dizzy so i fitted a 123 electronic ignition. I have put her all back together with a new thermosytat and after tweeking the timing she is running well, or well enough for now seeing she has not been run for some time. Unfortunately, as I was waiting for her to warm up to check the thermostat, water started to flow from the rad overflow. I stopped the car immediately and after a minute or so the water flow stopped. The temp guage was reading 40 but the water in the top hose was only 25, measured on a thermostat control for an electric fan i also fitted. Radiator was cold. When i opened the rad it was full, even though i only filled it to the level of the bottom of the rad cap housing. To try to understand it a bit more I restarted the enging and collected the overflow for about 30 seconds and collected about a litre and a half. When i stopped the engine again the rad was full although the level went down after a minute or two. I cannot think of anything i could have done to cause this so turned to Haynes for some inspiration. Unfortunately the only line in the book that refers to this water flow suggests that the cylinder head gasget has gone. So my questions, is it a foregone conclusion that they have or is there any potential alternative situations that could cause this problem. As i type this i suppose i should have dissconnected the return pipe from the thermostat housing to the rad cap housing to see if that is where the water is coming from, sorry but I didn't. Any help sincerly appreciated.

[PPV]

The first thing I would check is the radiator cap to ensure you have the right one fitted. Not sure about the type for a 240. There may be bits missing or the wrong type fitted. The neck is also different on different radiators as yours may not be the original.
As the car seems to fire and run Ok then the next thing may be a blocked radiator and as water pours out of the overflow before it is up to temperature it sounds like you have no thermostat fitted so the water will immediately expand and come out of the radiator top.
On my 3.8 the radiator has a drain cock operated from the top by a long spindle on the LHS (as viewed from the drivers seat). You can open this and see what comes out. It may be blocked/stiff and can be cleared with a bit of wire and WD40 or similar hopefully.
Then see where you need to go from there. I am sure others will have views also.
Good look.
Regards,

[Martec]

It is a large engine with a large water capacity, water expands as it gets hot! so if you fit an expansion tank from any scrapyard and pipe the overflow into the BOTTOM of the expansion tank, it will be drawn back into the radiator when it cools.

Usually there is a lot of air in the system, but with the above system it will work out eventually. Safe operating temperature of these engines is just over 70 degrees C or a bit higher.

As the heater is very high, I usually loosen a pipe on the heater with the engine idling to remove air on first filling.

This has been written about ad infinitum on here on other posts.

Best wishes
Brian

[Doherto]

Paul, Brian, thank you for your replies. The radiator is new and i checked it before fitting and it flows perfectly. I also fitted a new thermostat, so unfortunately these two potential solutions can be ruled out. An air lock is a possability although when i drained the system, from the bottom hose, i collected all the liquid, filtered it back when refilling and she took the same amount to fill to the rad neck. The rad cap is 7lbs and checked in my wifes kitchen scales, and it took over 6lbs to operate. The rad cap is positioned on a platform which extends about 80mm out from the top of the radiator the neck rim is 20mm below the top and the rad cap rubber seal compresses onto that rim when inserted. I have read al round the posts about an expansion tank, which i will fit when i find this problem but at the moment, as it delivered a litre and a half in 30 seconds I do not see this as a solution at the moment. I have ordered a compression tester, as i do not have one or access to one, so will have to wait till early next week for it to arrive. I have removed the plugs and they are all black, she must be running rich, but no. 3 cylinder plug is cleaner than all the others. I guess this lends itself to a head gasket but is there anything else i should be looking for or at while i wait for the compression tester.

[PPV]

You could check the water for CO content/bubbles. I think there are test kits on the usual auction sites available. Also if gasket failure is significant then you would see staem mist from exhaust (not just the usual start up condensation type mist). In addition there may be water in your oil if it also leaks to the oil ways etc. causing emulsifying at the breather.
You mention the radiator cap as checked for pressure but I was thinking for length as there are different length necks on the radiators for our cars, so although it appears to bottom on the neck does it in fact seal properly when fitted?
The no3 cylinder plug could be weaker colour because of an air leak instead of gasket failure. Change the plug with another cylinder to see if it still looks a lighter colour.
A compression tester will not on its own say a head gasket problem as it may be stuck rings or a valve problem so you would have to eliminate those issues also.
By the way mine does push out water and I use an overflow tank as Brian suggests as I have found no issue with my system except for that fact. Mine is collected on a 1litre milk bottle which is then sucked back into the engine when it cools but it only displaces about 500ml.
Regards,
Paul

[Doherto]

Thank you Paul but the unknown is pushing me towards a full engine and gearbox out and complete check / refurb. I have just purchased the car and now do not believe half of what i was told so in order to have confidance in touring her around europe i am going to bite the bullet. I have a refurbished short motor waiting for the time the current engine needed replacing so decision made. She runs on leaded so I can have the head done at the same time. My self imposed schedule was to have her finished by Easter but then I would allways be uncomfortable on long journeys. It never rains but it pours. This is my first cat so it will be a good learning exercise. If there is anyone living in the Manchester area and have not attempted this job and want to help / learn they are more than welcome.

[PPV]

If you have the inclination then an engine/gearbox out is the best thing as you can check all leaks, clutch, block silting, general wear with head off etc etc.
There is excellent support from Mr RG Bates on the Wirral area (contact appears in magazine etc) and I am sure others.
However, I do not know about the 240 but I thought XK's can accomodate unleaded without mods to cylinder head so check and if so no need to waste money.
I have just come out of hospital but live in Cheshire, whereabouts are you in Manchester (north/south etc) as I may be interested when better?
Keep photo's etc as would be good for article in the magazine.
Best regards and good look with the work,
Paul

[Doherto]

Paul, for all the reasons you mentioned the decision to take out the works was made. Since joining JEC i have done very little execpt read the forums which are really helpful and now understand silting up blocks etc etc. I intend, after checking or refurbing the head, as required, matching it with the refurbished block i have already. Next will be to put a new clutch in while i can and check the gearbox. I do not see a specific gearbox forum but i guess transmission will cover it. If all goes well i expect to remove the engine and gearbox next week but will have to leave it there as we are off to france until mid late september as soon as our daughter has our sixth grandchild, assuming all is ok. I will try to create an article when finished as i did for the Royale Owners club when i built my SAbre using a Granada 2.9.as the donar. I am near Leigh 10 miles west of Manchester fyi. Happy for anyone to visit for whatever reason

[Doherto]

For information for anyone interested, today i started to prep the engine and gearbox for removal at 10.00. I was suprised, very suprised, at 18.00 to have finished and now need to build a working height bench to work on and hire a hoist. I am new to Jags and only working in my domestic garage so if anyone is contemplating a major refurb, its not as bad as I thought anyway. I am sure going back in will be another story.

[Tilleyjon]

Hi Dehorto

My 3.4 was almost completely choked up in the water ways and needed some tig welding to the waterways in the head where it mates to the block.

The block and head will need caustic dipping to get in everywhere, check valve guide wear, they do tend to go oval.
Upgrade the crank oil seal, there are a few options, but the one I went with goes on the largest face where the flywheel mounts, and uses a one piece proper oil seal with a 2 part housing. This requires the mating face to be polished, but not machined as other types do, but it does require 2mm to be taken off the sump edge where the cork seal fits.

I could go on, I did just about everything, guessed that I only wanted to do it once ! There is some more info in this post if you are interested http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic. ... 12&t=10625

I used an engine swivel stand, it worked a treat, the engine is still on it now, only just finished putting it together.

Stand
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/680KG-HEAVY-D ... SwV0RXqdK6

[Doherto]

Tilleyjon, thank you for your input and help. I hired a hoist to take out the engine and gearbox, which went without too many hickups. However i built a working height bench to work on it but now find i can't lift or manouver anything. I have therefore ordered a hoist which i will resell at the end of the project and following your input have ordered an engine stand which will be used and sold in the same way, maybe. I assume fitting the engine to it is easy enough, lets see. I am off to read your other link now, thanks again

[Tilleyjon]

I attached the stand to the bell housing position, using the bell housing bolts, you may be able to see it in my other post.

Jon