LNA1600AA fitted just now.
No change. Faults at half hot and again if you leave the car for a few minutes and start up again.
What on earth is the matter with this car? MAF sensor change next?
Mike
Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
That's dissapointing Mike, although I'm not too suprised. These thermister sensors usually fail either open or closed circuit either of which can be easily tested with a multimeter. At least by changing it you have eliminated any poor connection within the sensor itself.
I don't know if you have already been through the wiring diagrams on http://www.jagrepair.com/ if not, they may be helpfull.
I don't know if you have already been through the wiring diagrams on http://www.jagrepair.com/ if not, they may be helpfull.
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Mike,
Don't change any parts unless you know they are faulty. Why not do what I suggested and just buy a few resistors for a few pence. Disconnect the sensor when cold, put a resistor across the wires equivalent to cold gauge position. Run the car for a few minutes, then replace resistor with one equivalent to mid-position. As we discussed, you need to determine if the problem lies with the sensor wiring circuit before looking elsewhere.
Good luck
Paul
Don't change any parts unless you know they are faulty. Why not do what I suggested and just buy a few resistors for a few pence. Disconnect the sensor when cold, put a resistor across the wires equivalent to cold gauge position. Run the car for a few minutes, then replace resistor with one equivalent to mid-position. As we discussed, you need to determine if the problem lies with the sensor wiring circuit before looking elsewhere.
Good luck
Paul
1995 XJS 4.0 Convertible
1980 XJ-S Pre-HE
Jaguar 4.2 Supercharged engine (but not with a Jaguar body..)
1980 XJ-S Pre-HE
Jaguar 4.2 Supercharged engine (but not with a Jaguar body..)
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Mike,
Have you ever got an actual fault code up for any of the multiple faults you are reporting?
What does either of your obd testers say ? You report one or other is permanently hooked up so you can clear the faults ...so you must be getting codes ?
Are the faults actually related to the bits you are changing ?
Interested obviously because of my xk8 saga !!!!!!!
Have you ever got an actual fault code up for any of the multiple faults you are reporting?
What does either of your obd testers say ? You report one or other is permanently hooked up so you can clear the faults ...so you must be getting codes ?
Are the faults actually related to the bits you are changing ?
Interested obviously because of my xk8 saga !!!!!!!
XK8 MY2002
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Currently at my parents in Caterham doing some stuff for them. I recall there is a tin of resistors around somewhere.
Had a chat with Ian at XJK and immediately after with Paul.
After a cold start this car continues fault either about 30 seconds after fire up or when it gets to half hot If the codes are then cleared, normal service again until the next start. Even a five minute stop outside a shop and then a restart can often cause a fault again.
Fault codes present when the glitch occurs are P1000. PO171 and PO174.
I spent a further ten minutes pulling off plugs and refitting them around the engine bay, all to no avail. Paul tells me there are other temp sensors on this model ie one down by the oil filter, another on the fuel rail.
I need to get the air feed plenum off the throttle body and see if I can tinker with any plugs in that area Also worth con testing the engine temp wires back as far as I can find them.
Getting rather naffed off now with this cold start issue.
Mike
Had a chat with Ian at XJK and immediately after with Paul.
After a cold start this car continues fault either about 30 seconds after fire up or when it gets to half hot If the codes are then cleared, normal service again until the next start. Even a five minute stop outside a shop and then a restart can often cause a fault again.
Fault codes present when the glitch occurs are P1000. PO171 and PO174.
I spent a further ten minutes pulling off plugs and refitting them around the engine bay, all to no avail. Paul tells me there are other temp sensors on this model ie one down by the oil filter, another on the fuel rail.
I need to get the air feed plenum off the throttle body and see if I can tinker with any plugs in that area Also worth con testing the engine temp wires back as far as I can find them.
Getting rather naffed off now with this cold start issue.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
So P1000 is "system check not complete after clearing" ?
Fault codes present when the glitch occurs are P1000. PO171 and PO174.
Mike
The real issues are the other two, lean on bank one and two, could that be caused by something that you have played with when you modified the engine?
Did you not modify the air induction side of things? ( air filter housing if I recall? or maybe not!) to increase air capacity/ velocity?
Just thoughts off the top of the head
XK8 MY2002
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Car has been all good for a couple of months after the major mods until the issue on the Monday after Xmas when the trouble started. No I totally discount any issue generated by the small pulley, K&N, or the stuffed up noise attenuators or indeed the reflash..
This issue is to do with some mis-match of signals soon after start up where a timer also has a considerable influence.
My trip from Portsmuth up the A3 and onto the M25 and then up the A23 (78miles) was perfect once I initially cleared DTC`s back in Portsmouth. A very rapid trip with the car showing real muscles following the MAF clean which has finally completely restored the low speed grunt which I moaned so much about in early days of ownership after buying the car. It is indecently quick almost to the point of lunacy. Most certainly the fastest car I`ve ever driven. Nothing untoward at all in that department. The problem is now purely the glitch soon after start up, which is easily cleared on Torque or Carsoft. Once that has been done, no further issues until the next start up, whether hot or cold. Yes, it does the same thing hot as it does hen cold. Remember I had a couple of good days last week before the issue returned.
Paul and I have been on the case by phone. we have been brainstorming and spent much time internet searching. Ten options found which influence the faulting on PO171 and 174 which are both lean fuel issues when the faulting occurs.
We have also found that there appear to be three temp sensors on the 4.2R which also extend to XF and S-type. You will recognize these part numbers.
AJ8100 31 is a temp sensor mounted down by the oil filter.
LNA1600AA is the engine temp sensor immediately alongside the themostat.
LRA1600AB is the fuel temp sensor in the end of the fuel rail, OS rear above the rear spark plug area.
More investigation tomorrow.
Mike
This issue is to do with some mis-match of signals soon after start up where a timer also has a considerable influence.
My trip from Portsmuth up the A3 and onto the M25 and then up the A23 (78miles) was perfect once I initially cleared DTC`s back in Portsmouth. A very rapid trip with the car showing real muscles following the MAF clean which has finally completely restored the low speed grunt which I moaned so much about in early days of ownership after buying the car. It is indecently quick almost to the point of lunacy. Most certainly the fastest car I`ve ever driven. Nothing untoward at all in that department. The problem is now purely the glitch soon after start up, which is easily cleared on Torque or Carsoft. Once that has been done, no further issues until the next start up, whether hot or cold. Yes, it does the same thing hot as it does hen cold. Remember I had a couple of good days last week before the issue returned.
Paul and I have been on the case by phone. we have been brainstorming and spent much time internet searching. Ten options found which influence the faulting on PO171 and 174 which are both lean fuel issues when the faulting occurs.
We have also found that there appear to be three temp sensors on the 4.2R which also extend to XF and S-type. You will recognize these part numbers.
AJ8100 31 is a temp sensor mounted down by the oil filter.
LNA1600AA is the engine temp sensor immediately alongside the themostat.
LRA1600AB is the fuel temp sensor in the end of the fuel rail, OS rear above the rear spark plug area.
More investigation tomorrow.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Yes, I see where you are going on the basis it happens hot and cold starts.
Hope something turns up soon... Keep us posted
Hope something turns up soon... Keep us posted
XK8 MY2002
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
More calls to Paul last night and to Tom Lenthall this morning.
Toms immediate reaction having had my continued description of this sage, was to agree there were two problems which occurred around the same time. As a new temp sensor and thermostat had been fitted, his diagnosis was that a new MAF should also be fitted. He had seen similar issues on other cars himself all of which were cured with a new MAF. So I`m just about to order one from Geange Jaguar in Croydon. More expense!
Mike
Toms immediate reaction having had my continued description of this sage, was to agree there were two problems which occurred around the same time. As a new temp sensor and thermostat had been fitted, his diagnosis was that a new MAF should also be fitted. He had seen similar issues on other cars himself all of which were cured with a new MAF. So I`m just about to order one from Geange Jaguar in Croydon. More expense!
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Mike,
Just a thought. You have been busy clearing all the fault codes but have you tried a full 'battery disconnected' reboot. It is possible that the software has a glitch that clearing the codes appears to resolve but will repeat when the circumstances and inputs repeat.
Rod
Just a thought. You have been busy clearing all the fault codes but have you tried a full 'battery disconnected' reboot. It is possible that the software has a glitch that clearing the codes appears to resolve but will repeat when the circumstances and inputs repeat.
Rod
Ex 2010 XF 3.0 Luxury Diesel
Ex 2004 XK8 Coupe
Ex 2004 XK8 Coupe
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
A good point. Deep seated codes can indeed lurk and sometimes a full disconnect can be beneficial.
I`ll try that tomorrow. Thanks for the idea.
Today, the car started and ran until half heat indicated. Then glitched as now normal. Not had time today to investigate further.
Mike
I`ll try that tomorrow. Thanks for the idea.
Today, the car started and ran until half heat indicated. Then glitched as now normal. Not had time today to investigate further.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
I collected a new MAF from Grange in Croydon. The part number for a supercharged 04 XJR is C2C7636 at a cost of £111 all in with a 10% discount.
I fitted the MAF but a little later the usual faulting returned. However, once I`d again cleared the DTC`s, the car seemed to have more extra low down grunt than at any other time in my short ownership. The idle was also a little slower and less lumpy than previously experienced.
Then Rob phoned to rub my nose in the misery offering to buy the car for his usual opening bid of ten fags and half a bottle of cheap whiskey. Having released I`d neither buy a car from him or sell him mine, the following advice was offered.
"Get yer great mit down around the back of the throttle body and find a small vac type pipe similar to the type of pipe we used to find connected from an inlet manifold to a distributor advance capsule on something like a 1970`s car. I bet you find it has gone soggy, split, collapsed, expanded or has fallen off the stub pipe on the throttle body".
My hands are huge so no chance of that happening without removal of the plenum above the throttle. It joins to the inlet pipe trunking and brings air from the air cleaner box. Despite being short of time, I tore off those parts in about three minutes flat. Note the inlet plenum (ie the one you see immediately you open the bonnet on top of the engine) is linked to the throttle body by a short length of rubber collar of about 3" diameter and is fitted with two of those horrible squeeze clips. I`ve previously removed those clips in favor of Jubilee clips which are easier to tighten in a VERY confined space. I use one of those flexi drive screw driver type tools with a 8mm socket on the end. This is normally the standard size for modern metric jubilee clips. I slackened the top clip to allow the upper plenum to lift clear of the top of the down drought throttle body then slide the plenum forward on its peg at the front of the engine before lifting it clear..
The area behind the back of the engine is very cramped and chock full of pipes, cables in flexi conduit, sensors, plugs, vac/pressure units, the throttle body and a MAP sensor. An EGR valve is also in there somewhere. Its a nightmare in a six inch square space. You need to spend a few minutes poking around to familiarize yourself before attempting any remedial work.
Below the upper plenum is the supercharger outlet plenum/manifold which feeds compressed charge air to the inter-cooler bricks. On the passenger side, at the rear of that manifold is an inch long metal 1/8" diameter pipe.......................IN MY CASE WITH NO RUBBER PRESSURE OR FEED PIPE ATTACHED TO IT!..... BULLSEYE in one shot. The pipe had fallen off the manifold pipe!!!! I recovered the rubber pipe from its resting place and cut off the first half inch as it had expanded over the years and was a loose fit on the metal pipe. That done, I nailed the whole lot back together again in double quick time.
I started the car and counted to thirty. Normally this was one of two typical and critical times the car would fault. No issues at all. I took my Father to hospital and experienced one glitch having descended a steep hill on overrun. Another glitch took place twenty minutes after leaving my Father there for treatment and making a return journey. Back at his home, I lifted the bonnet yet again. Not wishing to dismantle the car again as I would have to return to the hospital within three hours, I idly fiddled and faddled around the area of that small rubber pipe. I`m not sure what I achieved in the process but the car ran faultlessly on both the collection on return journeys this evening. Twenty miles covered and no sign of repeated faulting. I now hope I am home and dry with these recent issues but as always, only time will tell.
Lets summarize.
The First Fault.
The thermostat was replaced as it appears to have an issue which caused a hot spot immediately before it and caused the temperature sensor to hit the gauge stops in a full red over heat condition. The auxiliary coolant pump also serves to help prevent overheating should the belt driven pump fail or there be a thermostat problem. That aux pump may well have saved a catastrophic over from heat developing.
The original temp sensor although initially suspect now appears serviceable. Subsequently, an after market sensor was fitted which proved unsuitable and badly confused diagnosis for a while. That sensor got binned. Finally a new OE temp sensor was fitted which gave the same results under test as the twelve year old original item. Replacement of the new MAF sensor in this particular diagnostic situation is questionable. Most certainly the car drives better with a new part than it did with the pre-used used unit that has perhaps become a little tired. The old MAF will be retained as an on board spare part for emergency use. The same goes for the original OE temperature sensor.
The Second Fault.
Consistent MIL lamp, Check Light and restricted performance after thirty seconds of running and at one point at half hot engine temperature. The faulting would also reoccur after a quick stop and then a restart. PO171 and PO174, lean fuel, Banks A & B. The engine ECU looks for 13-1 air/ fuel stochiometric mixture values soon after start up. If the mixture is lean, the ECU will make a "fault judgement" and switch on the MIL, the Check light and restricted mode to ensure the car cannot be driven in a condition which might damage the engine if driven hard. A lean fuel mixture would do just that if not controlled when a lean fault occurs. Lean faulting on two banks implied that the lean fault originated before entering the combustion chamber in a jointly shared area. The lower outlet plenum after the supercharger is one such area and has the metal pipe exiting from it. That left the rubber pipe which should have been attached, open as indeed was that metal pipe itself on the outlet plenum. Mystery solved, answer revealed, put the pipe back on ensuring it won`t drop off again and instant cure to PO171 & PO!74 faults.....easy when you know how.
Further thoughts following this difficult saga which has lasted for around nineteen days. I consider that components that are around twelve years old may not be as efficient or reliable as new zero mileage parts. I need this car reliable and today thanks specifically go to Rob for his phone call. I must of course also thank those who have contributed knowledge and ideas during the diagnosis and fixing of this car. A result has been achieved which brings the car back into the Land of the Living. Once again a great car that should do well for the future and deserves and needs continued maintenance. To assist cooling of the up-rated engine further, I shall soon be installing a new higher flow Bosch up-rated electric auxiliary coolant pump. With twenty percent more power available from the engine, in summer months the addition of a bigger high flow pump would seem prudent. Heat is work and work is heat. You have to get rid of it somehow or detonation and or destructive power loss will occur.
These issues have been quite a learning curve for many of us. All the answers were available if only we had known exactly where to look. The major electrical issue was caused by a small pipe that fell off and the spoof overheat was caused by a thermostat that failed to open correctly and caused a hot spot around the temperature sensor..
Thank you all again for your help. As always I`ll write this up for the magazine pages.
Mike
I fitted the MAF but a little later the usual faulting returned. However, once I`d again cleared the DTC`s, the car seemed to have more extra low down grunt than at any other time in my short ownership. The idle was also a little slower and less lumpy than previously experienced.
Then Rob phoned to rub my nose in the misery offering to buy the car for his usual opening bid of ten fags and half a bottle of cheap whiskey. Having released I`d neither buy a car from him or sell him mine, the following advice was offered.
"Get yer great mit down around the back of the throttle body and find a small vac type pipe similar to the type of pipe we used to find connected from an inlet manifold to a distributor advance capsule on something like a 1970`s car. I bet you find it has gone soggy, split, collapsed, expanded or has fallen off the stub pipe on the throttle body".
My hands are huge so no chance of that happening without removal of the plenum above the throttle. It joins to the inlet pipe trunking and brings air from the air cleaner box. Despite being short of time, I tore off those parts in about three minutes flat. Note the inlet plenum (ie the one you see immediately you open the bonnet on top of the engine) is linked to the throttle body by a short length of rubber collar of about 3" diameter and is fitted with two of those horrible squeeze clips. I`ve previously removed those clips in favor of Jubilee clips which are easier to tighten in a VERY confined space. I use one of those flexi drive screw driver type tools with a 8mm socket on the end. This is normally the standard size for modern metric jubilee clips. I slackened the top clip to allow the upper plenum to lift clear of the top of the down drought throttle body then slide the plenum forward on its peg at the front of the engine before lifting it clear..
Below the upper plenum is the supercharger outlet plenum/manifold which feeds compressed charge air to the inter-cooler bricks. On the passenger side, at the rear of that manifold is an inch long metal 1/8" diameter pipe.......................IN MY CASE WITH NO RUBBER PRESSURE OR FEED PIPE ATTACHED TO IT!..... BULLSEYE in one shot. The pipe had fallen off the manifold pipe!!!! I recovered the rubber pipe from its resting place and cut off the first half inch as it had expanded over the years and was a loose fit on the metal pipe. That done, I nailed the whole lot back together again in double quick time.
Lets summarize.
The First Fault.
The thermostat was replaced as it appears to have an issue which caused a hot spot immediately before it and caused the temperature sensor to hit the gauge stops in a full red over heat condition. The auxiliary coolant pump also serves to help prevent overheating should the belt driven pump fail or there be a thermostat problem. That aux pump may well have saved a catastrophic over from heat developing.
The original temp sensor although initially suspect now appears serviceable. Subsequently, an after market sensor was fitted which proved unsuitable and badly confused diagnosis for a while. That sensor got binned. Finally a new OE temp sensor was fitted which gave the same results under test as the twelve year old original item. Replacement of the new MAF sensor in this particular diagnostic situation is questionable. Most certainly the car drives better with a new part than it did with the pre-used used unit that has perhaps become a little tired. The old MAF will be retained as an on board spare part for emergency use. The same goes for the original OE temperature sensor.
The Second Fault.
Consistent MIL lamp, Check Light and restricted performance after thirty seconds of running and at one point at half hot engine temperature. The faulting would also reoccur after a quick stop and then a restart. PO171 and PO174, lean fuel, Banks A & B. The engine ECU looks for 13-1 air/ fuel stochiometric mixture values soon after start up. If the mixture is lean, the ECU will make a "fault judgement" and switch on the MIL, the Check light and restricted mode to ensure the car cannot be driven in a condition which might damage the engine if driven hard. A lean fuel mixture would do just that if not controlled when a lean fault occurs. Lean faulting on two banks implied that the lean fault originated before entering the combustion chamber in a jointly shared area. The lower outlet plenum after the supercharger is one such area and has the metal pipe exiting from it. That left the rubber pipe which should have been attached, open as indeed was that metal pipe itself on the outlet plenum. Mystery solved, answer revealed, put the pipe back on ensuring it won`t drop off again and instant cure to PO171 & PO!74 faults.....easy when you know how.
Further thoughts following this difficult saga which has lasted for around nineteen days. I consider that components that are around twelve years old may not be as efficient or reliable as new zero mileage parts. I need this car reliable and today thanks specifically go to Rob for his phone call. I must of course also thank those who have contributed knowledge and ideas during the diagnosis and fixing of this car. A result has been achieved which brings the car back into the Land of the Living. Once again a great car that should do well for the future and deserves and needs continued maintenance. To assist cooling of the up-rated engine further, I shall soon be installing a new higher flow Bosch up-rated electric auxiliary coolant pump. With twenty percent more power available from the engine, in summer months the addition of a bigger high flow pump would seem prudent. Heat is work and work is heat. You have to get rid of it somehow or detonation and or destructive power loss will occur.
These issues have been quite a learning curve for many of us. All the answers were available if only we had known exactly where to look. The major electrical issue was caused by a small pipe that fell off and the spoof overheat was caused by a thermostat that failed to open correctly and caused a hot spot around the temperature sensor..
Thank you all again for your help. As always I`ll write this up for the magazine pages.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Hi Mike,
Great news. It's been quite a saga and I''m sure all who have followed it have all learned something to mentally file away for future reference.
Sod's law puts degradable components way out of sight ............
Rod
Great news. It's been quite a saga and I''m sure all who have followed it have all learned something to mentally file away for future reference.
Sod's law puts degradable components way out of sight ............
Rod
Ex 2010 XF 3.0 Luxury Diesel
Ex 2004 XK8 Coupe
Ex 2004 XK8 Coupe
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Excellent news !
I didn't realise that it was only taking thirty seconds to go to fault mode, mine takes half the temperature gauge reading to fault !
Anyway, great result and well done that man, Rob !
I didn't realise that it was only taking thirty seconds to go to fault mode, mine takes half the temperature gauge reading to fault !
Anyway, great result and well done that man, Rob !
XK8 MY2002
Re: Spoof overheat condition. All models of V8 engine.
Both the 30 second fault and the half hot reading were the two critical times at one point, Peter.
Then, things improved to just the 30 second glitch. After the MAF was changed, the issue was still there. It was Rob who saved the day with the rubber pipe idea. It certainty had fallen off but not at the end Rob thought. It was at the more accessible end on the pressure side of the supercharger, before the inter-cooler bricks.
Very grateful indeed to Rob. Damned fine friend of mine...in fact everybodys. Shame his eyes are too close together.
Mike
Then, things improved to just the 30 second glitch. After the MAF was changed, the issue was still there. It was Rob who saved the day with the rubber pipe idea. It certainty had fallen off but not at the end Rob thought. It was at the more accessible end on the pressure side of the supercharger, before the inter-cooler bricks.
Very grateful indeed to Rob. Damned fine friend of mine...in fact everybodys. Shame his eyes are too close together.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
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