Engine Cutting Out.

[DaimlerDave.]

Hi to all,
Had a big problem last week whilst travelling down to the Vale of Belvoir from Bolton for a short break in my 1996 Daimler Six. Had no problem on the Motorway, which included several stops, got about 6 miles past Nottingham on the A52 when the Transmission Light came on, quickly followed by the Engine Check Light. The engine cut out, then fired up, this happened every few seconds,the engine check light flashing on/off in sync, transmission light stayed on. All other gauges were reading ok. Eventually found a lay-by and pulled in. Tried starting the car, it would run for a few seconds, then die.
As we were only about 8 miles from the B&B we were staying at, I phoned Norman (the owner) and he came out and took my better half and all our luggage back with him. I then phoned a recovery company and asked for the car to be taken to a well known Nottingham Jaguar Specialist (at great expense!). The car was coincidentally booked into this Jaguar Specialist for the following day for a scan and general health check, so during the allotted time slot it was checked over. Although the fault could not be found, several things were ruled out. I then had no option but to phone the insurance and their recovery agents took myself and the car home that evening. I set off at 5.00am the next morning and travelled back to the B&B (and my better half) in our Honda Jazz. Arrived at 7.30am, 131 miles,58.6mpg and in plenty of time for breakfast, so not a bad result.
A couple of things to mention, it was suggested it could be the coolant temperature sensor, as the car would only misbehave at the specialists when warm and also when I was approaching Nottingham, I switched Transmission into sport mode to tackle the nightmare of a ring road! I had to flick the switch several times before sport would engage. When the car was misbehaving I switched back to normal, but the sport light remained on, and at one stage appeared to be stuck in a low gear. When I arrived home with the transporter, the car started fine and I put it in it's usual parking spot, no problems at all.
Am I barking up the wrong tree with the sport mode switch (either way, I will replace it, they are still available from Jaguar). I would be most grateful for any help in solving this dilemma. Thanks in advance.
Regards....Dave.

[robv12]

some things to check

tbh I don't think the sport switch is at fault, although a cheap fix if it is, and I will happily admit to be wrong once more!!

crank position sensors can give this fault, these are all getting old now and beginning to fail, we had an XJR 300 auto with an identical fault and symptoms

fuel pump may be giving up the ghost, so check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail

blocked fuel filter

the gearbox loom connector on these cars will also give problems, again they are all old now and have been exposed to damp and road dirt for years, scramble underneath the left hand side of the car, push back the transmission tunnel sound deadening, locate the black loom connector, undo, it twists and pull out, clean with good electrical contact cleaner, NOT WD40, refit and test drive

try these and post back with the results

[DaimlerDave.]

Hi Rob,
Just a quick update for now. I drove the car to the guys that have been looking after the car for the last 12months, a Rolls Royce/Bentley Independent specialist (one of the guys is Jaguar trained). Got there with no problems, They checked the Trans harness, looked like new. The car was left to tick over for a while before it stopped dead, just like turning the ignition off! They have ordered a new Crankshaft Position Sensor. The Trans Fluid was found to be a bit low and murky looking, so that will be sorted as well. I will update when I know the problem is fixed.
Regards....Dave.

[DaimlerDave.]

Just had a call from the garage, they've fitted the new Crankshaft Position Sensor, but it's made no difference, the car ran for about 20 mins and then stopped dead again! I suggested maybe it could be the fuel pump, but they think if it was that, it would more than likely splutter as the engine stops, rather than a sudden stop. Got to ring back about 4.00pm for a progress(or lack of) report.
Regards....Dave.

[ptjs1]

Dave,

Thag sounds a bizarre problem. The bit I don't understand is how an automatic that cut out can then start up again on it's own as you mentioned in the first post. That doesn't seem possible. Do you mean that you stopped the car after it cut out and then you started the car?

I'm sure Rob has more experience of CKPS but my experience is that they are more likely to cause starting problems than stop the car when running. The car immediately cutting out sounds like an electrical problem such as fuel pump. But if that was the case then I'm not sure it would be able to be immediately started again. Have you checked the ignition switch for loose connections? The other thing I thought of was whether it's a dodgy fuel pressure regulator or it's vacuum hose.

Good luck with sorting it. Will be interested to know what's causing the problem.

Paul

[DaimlerDave.]

Hi Paul,
When the fault first occurred, we were probably doing between 50 and 60mph on an open road, the trans light came on first, then the check engine light. The engine cut out at the same time for a few seconds, then the check engine light went out, engine pulled ok, light came back on, engine cut again. This happened every 10 seconds or so, quite violently (can't think of a better way to put it!), we managed to travel another 2 or 3 miles with this happening, gradually slowing down to about 25mph came across a lay-by and pulled in, engine stopped at that moment. I tried starting several times, no joy. By the time the recovery vehicle arrived, the car started, just like there was nothing wrong!
When the car was in the Jag Specialists, the fuel pressure was tested and deemed ok at the time of the test, as was the throttle potentiometer. All I can say is that I hope the lads that are working on it now can find the fault.
Regards...Dave.

[naki]

i think the process of elimination could be the only way to find out whats really happening here. These intermittent issues can be very hard to track down. but as suggested so far, one of the sensors are high up the list. but as always make sure the servicing is "up to date" so plugs, all the filters, all the oils.

is full power available on the car, before it starts cutting out?
i would be inclined to check fuses are seated properly too, and check battery terminals are tight, earth straps, tight and clean.

the CPS is always worth giving it a clean and checking the plug connection too. they tend to get gunk over from engine grease, and can go intermittent. i carry a spare in the car at all times too, as they can give up at any time.
i would change the CTS as a matter of course anyhow. they are not expensive, and again check connections are clean and tight.
were any fault codes displayed on a code reader?

Though if David marks has not found the issue, then it must be haunted!

[ptjs1]

Dave,

I still don't understand how the engine can start up if it had completely cut out. Was the rev counter showing any revs at all? Or had the engine just lost a lot of power but was still running?

As i understand it, the Engine Position Sensor, or CPS as it is sometimes called, doesn't do anything except indicate engine timing position for starting. It doesn't do anything once the engine is running.

It does sound like one of these really annoying problems where you might have to rig up some voltage or resistance circuits off the fuel pump, ignition switch and other sensors to see which one suddenly drops out. As a matter of interest, do you know if the plug colour is the same on both front and rear banks of cylinders just after the engine has cut? Also have you ever had any moisture on the ECM? The plug connections on these can cause annoying problems.

I share your frustration. Good luck.

Paul

[DaimlerDave.]

Paul,
Sorry, can't say I noticed the rev counter, I was just trying to keep us safe and find somewhere to stop, the road was fairly busy. I'm afraid I can't really do much with cars these days due to health issues, and electrics are probably my worst subject anyway!
Spoke to the garage this morning, they are going to make up some kind of test rig with bulbs to find out which circuit is misbehaving, but doubt they can do that before Monday.
This is the kind of problem that makes you start to lose faith in the car, so I really hope they can come up with a solution that's not too expensive.

Dave.

[poprivet]

Dave, perhaps you can expand on the engine cutting-out bit. It sounds to me like its going into limp-home mode where the engine will only idle rather then completely stopping.

As Rob has suggested, gearbox switch/wiring is highly suspect, has this been throughly examined?

[DaimlerDave.]

Hi,
Don't think it was in limp home mode, that happened to me 12months ago and this didn't feel anything like that. The connector on the wiring at the gearbox looked like new, but at this stage can't say if it's been examined for any breaks etc. The ECM has been examined both here and down at David Marks Garage and was found to be dry, but I suppose that won't rule out any internal problem, dry joints? etc. All I can do for now is leave it with the garage.
Just out of interest,where is the TCM located in my car?

Regards....Dave.

[Popsjag]

Hi Dave,

I assume you have a transmission with a Normal and Sport mode button on the centre console?

The location of the TCM is under the passenger glove box (according to my manual).

Good luck with sorting out the problem!

Steve.

[thejpster]

Mine did something similar to be on the A14. I have a 3.2 so there's no gearbox ECU and corresponding warning light. It just lost all power - pressing the throttle had no effect. After an number of seconds (it felt like ages) it came back to life with a massive thump through the transmission. It did that a couple more times but behaved itself when the man from the AA followed us home.

It later died while I was trying to back it out of the MOT bay. That was embarassing as they'd just passed it! I left it over the weekend and it fired up reluctantly the following Monday.

Anyway, our best guess was the fuel filter as it did all correspond with the car recently being almost run out of fuel. The nuts were corroded so nobody had changed it in ages. We cut the filter off and used some short rubber tubing to connect one from a Ford Focus ST (which happened to be about the right size for the clamp). Touch wood, it hasn't done it since.

PS: Experience tells me when you have really odd symptoms, there's often two simple, but different, problems going on at the same time. I'm not saying that's necessarily true but don't rule out a sport switch problem and a duff fuel filter and/or CKPS.

[ptjs1]

Dave,

Thejpster's symptoms sound very similar and perhaps reinforce my theory that the engine couldn't have completely cut out as I can not see how it can start on its own if it had actually cut out.

Fuel blockage or starvation could very easily have caused your symptoms with the engine then being unable to start, but if you leave it a while it may then start as it pulls through a bit more fuel before cutting out again.

If the car now starts at the garage, get them to run it until it cust outs again, then check the fuel pressure when it won't start. If there's then a lack of fuel then erratic pump or blocked filter could be a cause.

Good luck again!

Paul

[DaimlerDave.]

Hi,
When the car the car broke down and we actually came to a halt, I tried to start it straight away, but no joy. To be honest, I'm not sure if it was trying to fire up, or just turning over. By the time the recovery man arrived, about an hour, started up no problem and sounded great.
When I took the car to the garage where it is now, no problems, about 8 miles from home. I was at the garage all afternoon while they did the initial tests. The car was left to tick over and after about 20mins it cut out, just like turning it off, no coughing or spluttering. It continued to do that every few minutes after that after being restarted every time with no problems at all. would a fuel supply problem cause it to cut out so suddenly without any protest, so to speak? The garage changed the fuel filter at the back end of last year, the guy working on it emptied the contents of it in a jar and said it was the worst he had ever come across, like black sludge, he reckoned it hadn't been off for years! So much for the Independent Jag Specialist that I used to use up here after I first got the car, that said it was fine (along with my trans fluid, also like sludge), but that's another story, an expensive lesson learned the hard way.

Regards....Dave.