XF Rear Suspension

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WULLIE4567
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby WULLIE4567 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:13 pm

Hi Folks
Well they didn't fit a new subframe don't know what they've done they CAN'T fix it, My wife & I have appointment this Sat morning with manager, we don't want the car back now don't have the confidence in it. Road tax is due end of Aug don't want to tax it to sit in their garage. I'll let you all know the outcome soon but don't think it's good. Totally sickened with the whole thing :(

Wullie.
XJS AWAY TO NEW OWNER.
XK8 COUPE MY 2000 MY TOY & RANGE ROVER SPORT WORKHORSE.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:53 pm

Sounds like the dealership need to get a couple of top Jag guys down from the factory for a good look over.

Very odd that the cause of the effect hasn`t been found. DEW98 is now a well tried, trusted and understood platform. Once you have the hang of it, it isn`t really that complicated with each part fulfilling a function and various idiosyncratic faults and effects being well known.

I take it the top damper turret mounts have all been checked for security? Centre damper piston rod and the turret place bolts to the body shell.

I`m beginning to wonder if this may not be a suspension issue but perhaps something unrelated. I well remember a new 1978 Rover 2600 my Father bought. It developed a "suspension" knock. Layhams in Caterham spent ages looking for the issue. I found the problem when I let the clutch in when I had the bonnet open. One side of the engine lifted two inches into the air! Broken steel engine mount! I removed the mount from the car and gas welded it back together. The dealer demanded to know if we had smashed the car. Not in our ownership we replied. We have only had the car three weeks....but were using it as a builders truck. Rover replaced the mount FOC but three months later it happened again. I welded again and we left that mount on the car as a permanent feature. Clearly rather a weak and naff bit of design.

All in all a rather disappointing experience for you. Hopefully you can resolve with the dealer tomorrow.

Mike
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby WULLIE4567 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:00 pm

Well not the outcome I was expecting the car is going back to the dealer and I'm to have a full refund. The dealer can't find what the problem is, they offered another car but have nothing we want at our price so they are refunding what we paid. I was hoping they would find the noise and report it to you guy's. Maybe someone else will get to the bottom of it 'who knows', but thanks for all your help and info.

Wullie :(
XJS AWAY TO NEW OWNER.
XK8 COUPE MY 2000 MY TOY & RANGE ROVER SPORT WORKHORSE.

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Re: XF Suspension

Postby KevNoble » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:30 pm

As per Mike's article above, I replaced the front spherical bushes ( as also mentioned in the XF seminar). I used a set of bearing pullers and the job was relatively straight-forward. I took careful measurements before dismantling and had the car checked for alignment afterwards, but no adjustments were required. :D

Many thanks for the advice Mike.
Kev
First Jag was an LPG X308 XJ8; now have an XF 3.0D. I enjoy doing my own maintenance.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:02 pm

One of the best ways to save a fair amount of cash on cars equipped with that bearing. Hope you saved loads.

I bumped a pair of rear lower damper bushes off an XK8 yesterday. We all know what they externally look like. Cost is about £25 per bush. I cut off the rubber gaiter to allow more space for the push mandrel. Before I push the whole unit out, I`ll often push out the central guts of the bush. That gives even more space. So I loaded the central tube and pumped up the press. As expected I tore out the central portion leaving just the outside tube in the damper eye mount. Examining the central portion, I was somewhat taken aback to find a spherical bush and nylon type running cup. This is almost exactly the same design as the bushes found in the lower rear wishbones of s-type, X350, XF and also I believe in a couple of locations in the XK8.

For reference the spherical wishbone bearing is available from Racing Green Cars, North East Jaguar Spares and Berkshire Jag, just to name a few suppliers. Bought from Racing Green the part number is RG109 which is the 54mm long bush which suits both registers in some models but a 59mm long part is also needed for other models. The 54mm unit can be adapted with two packing washers as required. NE Jag Spares sell both lengths.

Before ordering ascertain which parts you need although most suppliers will send the appropriate lengths if you give them the last six alpha/numeric digits of your Vin No.

Fascinating parts are bushes. Dealing with these things has completely changed my life. Sad git!

Mike
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby davidr » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:46 pm

Mike - I think it's time to go to the pub and meet some real people! you're getting cabin fever!!

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby oldtimer » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:16 pm

DavidR you're right, tell him not to forget the Parrot !

P

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:51 pm

Slightly mad, misunderstood, one good legged, broken down, grumpy old pirate/engineer. Sounds about right. Thank you very much, Gents.

Mike
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby KevNoble » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:57 am

Just replaced my rear lower arm bushes and thought others might benefit from my observations ( and mistakes):
1. I imagined there were 2 spherical bushes on each arm, but there is only 1 on the inboard side. I bought 2 pairs of new bushes when I only needed 1 pair. However:
2. One of the most difficult tasks was to squeeze the rubber gaiter into the puller cup. I used some silicon spray and pushed it in gently with my fingers and a screwdriver, but I still managed to split a gaiter, so I now used one of the "extra" bushes I had!
3. The bolt for the inboard bush is quite difficult to get at. I used 2 extension bars and a universal knuckle joint on the socket to turn the bolt.
4. There was some slight play in both bushes, but despite having changed them, there is still a slight knock from the rear suspension on rough roads! Further investigation required....

Kev
First Jag was an LPG X308 XJ8; now have an XF 3.0D. I enjoy doing my own maintenance.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby KevNoble » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Following Mike's article above, I replaced the spherical bushes in the lower arms using a bearing puller set £100( on eBay): all relatively straightforward part from torquing-up the inner bolts due to access. In the end, I used a UJ and several extension bars on my torque wrench to reach the nut. I still have a minor knock when going over pot-holes. However, it only All this leads me to suspect roll bar bushes or links as they are the only thing i can think of that react to asymmetric loads. I will investigate further and report back. I have also replaced the front suspension lower (curved) arm bushes: following the excellent presentation from XJK at the XF seminar last year, these also wear out and cause the front tyres to rapidly wear on the insides as the wheels toe-out due to the worn bushes. Kev
First Jag was an LPG X308 XJ8; now have an XF 3.0D. I enjoy doing my own maintenance.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:29 pm

A good way to do lower rear arm bushes is to use a 44mm holes saw with the teeth ground off! This makes an idea mandrel as it is just the right size to pass through wishbone registers and will slip over the rubber gaiters on the bush without damaging them when you come to fit new parts. I find the job is made much easier if you heat the wishbone register with an electric heat gun to about 140 degrees which expands the wishbone slightly and will help the old bush to push out easily and without removing internal register metal. Don`t worry about upsetting the heat treatment of the wishbone as temperatures have to go to well over 200 degrees for over a quarter of an hour before the metallurgy of the wishbone becomes altered.


These spherical bushes are quite a loose fit in the register but even so you need to keep frictional material removal down as much as possible. Take precise insert dimensions with a vernier before you push an old bush out. Use a marker pen and write the outstand dimensions on the wishbone before you remove a bush. I prefer my bench press to fit and remove bushes as good control can be used during the work.

When fitting a new bush, ensure all old corrosion within the register is removed together with any metal burs, dings or other defects before you fit a new bush. Again use a heat gun on the wishbone register to expand it slightly. It is also a good idea to put your new bushes in a freezer overnight to make them contract in size. The expansion of the wishbone and the reduced size of the bush when applied together makes for really easy fitting. Just get the outstand depths right and the job is done.

I`ve just done the front lower wishbone bushes on my X350 which use the same "banana arms" and bushes as the pre-face lift onwards S-type and the XF. When those bushes fail, the car will drive like a demented tea trolley. In my opinion those front lower wishbone bushes on all modern Jags, including the early S-type are the most important bushes of all of them when it comes to decent handling. I now only fit polyurethane bushes to my cars because I`ve found the OE rubber based units have quite a short lifespan and I hate doing repeat jobs. Powerflex market both Black competition grade bushes and also a more acceptable Purple Series for S-type, XF and X350 models and they are not much more expensive than OE parts. They also come with a lifetime warranty which is one of the reasons I fit them. They are also dead easy to fit using just soap as a lubricant. The units i replaced on Saturday last have transformed the car. Nothing but praise for the Powerflex products. Upratedbushshop.com. They also trade as Psi Tuning and their service is excellent.
20151031_115613.jpg
On the S-type which as you may know, is very similar to the XF and X350 as regards common parts, I also changed both front and rear ARB bushes. The rear items can be a difficult job which on the early S-type had me have to lower the rear subframe to gain access. If you have to do that, then ensure you mark EXACTLY where the subframe locates relative to the body structure. Tipex is useful for that. A few index mark lines on the structure with a corresponding line on the subframe will help you get alignment right after work has been done. ARB bushes at both ends of the car can be hard work. Changing a couple of wishbones is easy by comparison. ARB access can be difficult and you can find the saddle fixing bolts very corroded. Allow at least three times the amount of time you think it will take to change them. Not a nice job.

Take a look at my post here on the subject of maintaining the suspension, dampers, ball joints and wheel bearings on these cars. i hope it will be useful.

http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=200&t=8040

Mike
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby KevNoble » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:44 pm

Rear Roll-Bar bushes.
Hi. I have a knocking noise from the rear suspension which is particularly evident when i drive over bumps on the left side of the car. When I drive over symmetrical bumps (e.g. speed humps) there is no noise, all of which leaves me to suspect the roll-bar bushes. (I have already replaced the main suspension bushes). The manual says I have to drop the rear subframe to do this ( a major undertaking), so I have 2 questions: (1) has anyone else had a similar experience/noise and if so, did replacing the roll-bar bushes fix it; and (2) can the bushes be replaced without dropping the subframe?

Apart from the above, the car is now approaching 150,000 miles and still goes perfectly.

Kev Noble
First Jag was an LPG X308 XJ8; now have an XF 3.0D. I enjoy doing my own maintenance.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:03 pm

I had to do this on my old S-type. The rear sub-frame does indeed have to be dropped to gain access to the ARB bushes and the bolts.

Having jacked the car and securely placed it on axle stands or substantial blocks, remove both rear wheels. Before taking them off measure from the rear edge of a front wheel rim to the rear edge of a rear wheel rim taking a tape measure across the wheel centre line. Note the dimension and compare with the wheel base length for your car taken from the owners handbook. Ensure you have that essential wheel base length dimension. Do the same on the other side of the car. Note that dimension because you will have to get that back again after you disturb the subframe.

Having removed both rear wheels, index mark tell-tale lines across suitable points on the subframe to correspond with the car body shell. Tipex fluid is suitable. Make plenty of marks to ensure you get the subframe back in again in EXACTLY the same place as it was before removing the frame. Work one side of the car at a time. Begin by disconnecting the rear ARB vertical links from the ARB on both sides. The job is impossible unless the ARB is disconnected from the wishbones. Use a trolley jack under the subframe to support it as you remove two long mounting bolts from the frame mounting rubbers. (Two each side) Be prepared for a load of trapped water to shoot out when you remove each bolt. The bolts will be covered in an obnoxious corrosive wet slurry which needs to be cleaned and then the bolts greased to help keep further issues at bay.

You may need to remove the rear brake calipers or dismantle the brake pipes to allow the frame to drop down. The frame will probably need to drop about 4" to allow ARB saddle and bolts to be removed. You can then fight off the old bushes and fit new. It is a bit of a cuss to do. Ensure the saddle clamp fits the depressions in the new bushes. Some cars have a hook and one bolt saddle clamp. Others have a two bolt arrangement. Getting the bolts back in again can be tiresome as the new bushes will be stiff to compress compared with the squashed ones that you have removed. Use the trolley jack and blocks of wood to compress the clamp into position. This might be required as with new bushes fitted, the clamp bolts may appear too short but then become usable with compression applied by the jack to get everything settled in place. Replace the subframe bolts and jack the frame back up into position ensuring your Tipex marks line up again. Repeat this operation on the other side of the car and again ensure the subframe is correctly located.

Mail or contact me by phone if you need further advice.

Mike K

Once both sides have been tackled, replace the wheels, drive the car, then find a flat level surface. Measure the wheel base length again to ensure you have that dimension correct on both sides of the car. It is essential that the frame is located correctly as it is from this location that all other tracking dimensions emanate from. That includes front wheel alignment.
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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby oldtimer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:27 am

Amazing, The solicitor charges a £100 a letter the dentist charges £100 a tooth and the plumber charges even more and we get all this information for free. Not bad ah.

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Re: XF Rear Suspension

Postby J44EAG » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:28 am

Astute words, Phil.

Solicitors charge this amount because they can and their clients need their advice to keep them out of jail, instigate divorce proceedings or help them buy a house. All essential stuff.

The technical advice I`ve given here falls into the non essential category which is a shame. If it was essential, I would have become a retired millionaire. As it is, I`m just retired and poor!

Mike
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