Winter pack

[painter]

As we are coming out of winter this is a little late as a topic, but worth inviting comments. Some years ago I bought my wife a pajero, (excellent condition and excellent engine - pity she didn't like it) but the clever Japs had offered a 'winter pack' option which included two batteries. Needless to say it never had problems starting and dealt with all the winter accessories without a hitch. Now bearing in mind XK8s are so sensitive with battery condition has anybody tried a 'winter pack' as a solution. I haven't measured the battery well but with modern specialist batteries I would have thought space is not a problem, and would also eliminate the problem of losing all the settings if the battery does need recharging. (charge one at a time and leave power on with the other - simples). It is not the window drop or seat memory that irritates me but the loss of the memory re: driving 'style', and it usually takes several trips for this to reset.

[PTR200Jag]

This is a subject, funnily enough, that a group of us were discussing at the local motorcycle club meet.
Motorcycles have small batteries and if a long period is left between "rides" then the less reputable batteries seem to fade away... and the trickle charger market was born !
Recent past discoveries of battery packs for ski sled/ boats and various other extreme weather vehicles has given bike batteries the fibreglass gel mat battery and this has gone a long way to solve the problem of loss of juice just when you need it.!

From the car point of view I have to say that if the batteries are running down in a couple / three weeks then the battery is knackered, for want of a better word, or something is shorting out in the electrical side in the car when it's sitting there quietly.

The other side of the coin is the the marketing boys are on a good wind up selling us winter packs to include TWO batteries !!
If they are marketing that solution then the battery they are providing for the vehicle is NOT up to standard for the electrical design criteria of the vehicle and I would suggest that the battery is not fit for purpose.
I could possibly understand this if we lived in sub zero temperatures all year round as batteries take heavy losses in this extreme type of weather... but we DON'T !!!

Interestingly the reliance on battery starter packs, so called booster batteries has taken a turn in that we are now being offered "booster packs that will start your car that you can store in the glovebox for those times when you might need it"
WHAT !

If your battery can't handle the starting of the car on a regular basis and you need to resort to your glovebox charger you really should have spent the money on a new battery instead !!

If you don't drive your vehicle far enough to charge the battery sufficiently try catching a bus.

Cynical, mois? mais oui

on with the hard hat...

[painter]

Well PTR I think you just won the JEC annual prize for smiley attachments. Glad to hear you don't have this problem. Your situation possibly reflects that of many Jaguar XK8 drivers, but not all. Some of us are retired and have more than one car on the road. I think the batteries sold by Jaguar take some beating, but there is a common theme especially on older cars for undiagnosed amber warnings, ultimately found to be caused by a battery that is being used by the car even when asleep.
If a car were to be used travelling to work on a regular basis then this would most likely not occur, however many owners choose to drive (especially older XK8's) in dry weather and even then when the hectic schedule of retirement allows: and so some of us tend to experience these irritating aberrations. There is also some evidence for older cars to have a 'Jaguar design' electrical fault which causes a small drain on the battery over a period of time, sufficient to cause a problem if the car is not used for 9 -10 days, a category into which my car (and I am sure many others during the winter) is the case. I rest my battery.

[PTR200Jag]

Do I get a battery (or battered ) as a prize for smileys then

Yes, I understand what you are saying, however, I have several bikes that do not get used on a regular basis, my modern 750 has an alarm "drain" but rotates like a good'un even after several weeks standing let alone a few days.

My S2000 car has sat under covers since October and fired first time I came to use it a couple weeks ago and has all the modern battery draining gismos....

My GT6 got fired up for the first time for six months last Saturday, ready to go to a classic car meet on Sunday... fired up after 20 seconds on the starter, and that's a six pot two litre, old design heavy engine... no sign of battery failure there, admittedly the GT6 doesn't have anything "running" when its "off" to drain it but time does cause a problem as you point out.

And as you are now acquainted with my "new" Jaguar ( ) you will be happy to note that even after two weeks without turning a wheel she fired on the first turn..... BUT that did have a new battery in November, before I got it.

I still firmly believe that if the battery can't cope with JUST several days standing then the battery, or the car , is not fit for purpose and something is wrong. !!

Still, just my opinion.... can I have my prize now

[painter]

Well I think you have come to the right conclusion PTR. Your bikes are ok, the S2000 does not have a problem, the GT6 (after 6 months without use or charge??) seems fine, and as an aside I have a 94 year old relative who still drives a '92 VW Golf and that is fine for 2 weeks +, in fact none of my other cars, nor any car that I can recall have had a problem starting after a couple of weeks dormant. So that brings us back to ermm oh' the Jag XK8, which is the subject of this topic.
I am fairly confident that many older XK8's will have this problem, as I have had the 'drain' tested by two Jag. main dealers + others. The Jag. main dealers were aware of this problem with several other cars in the area, but to find out where the problem lies would be almost 10 times the cost of a new battery! :whereas a winter pack would be 2 x the cost - simples.
And of course your prize - as we are rapidly approaching Easter I thought an egg would be appropriate.....large..... freerange.

[PTR200Jag]

Ah, drains, the sweet smell of .... never mind...........

Seriously, did you get a result as in numbers (milliamp... AMPS, gulp ) on the "drain" from the car? I presume you have figures, at least three lots?, (main dealer plus others) that tell you that the drain is excessive?

If so, have you pulled fuses to try and locate the source/circuit of this "drain"

Are there any figures on an "acceptable drain" at standstill from a Jaguar source?

Orkney and I have discussed this too and when we get a chance we will be seeing if we can come up with a definitive figure of "drain" on real live cars

If this drain can be pinned down then we can work out the length of time to drain a standard Jaguar recommended battery. As I said before ... fit for purpose and I suspect that many replacement batteries are not up to the standard / capacity in amp hours, that perhaps Jaguar would have issued them with from the factory
If this time to drain is anything less than at least a month then questions need to be asked about the state of the batteries that are causing these "faults" to flag up.

[mike020150]

If you search the BB for 'quiescent current' or similar, you will see that this is a subject which has been raised previously. The typical quiescent current for an XK8 is less than 30 milliamps, one hour after locking the car (some circuits remain in a state of readiness for up to an hour). One common problem is failure of the rechargeable battery in the alarm sounder. When it fails, it takes a continuous small charging current from the main car battery. Of course, even a tiny discharge current over 24 hours a day will rapidly empty a fully charged 120amp hour battery in perfect condition, eg a continuous 0.2 amps = 4.8 amp hours per day or 25 days to completely flatten a brand new max capacity battery, far sooner with an old battery or until a car can't manage a cold start (10/15 days?). At 30 milliamps, the same perfect battery would take 167 days to discharge completely. Hence, if newish batteries are discharging unusually quickly, it's worth doing a quiescent current check before condemning the battery. Mike.

[PTR200Jag]

Thanks Mike, just had a look at the posts, back in 2009 !
Springelec provides some really useful information plus the figures you supplied so it should be a matter of using these to measure the type problem that Painter had back then and some are having now..again
Interesting point about the alarm sounder.... is this easy to get at to check it?
certainly saved some legwork now anyway, thanks

[mike020150]

The alarm sounder is notionally a sealed unit buried in the nose (from memory), However, I have heard that some dextrous types have managed to open them up and replace the batteries. If it fails and is causing problems (often the alarm gets very sensitive when the battery fails) there isn't much to lose by opening it up and trying to fix it before resorting to the usual breakers (the sounders are NLA from Jaguar). Mike.

[painter]

that's interesting Mike, saves me plodding through a tome of paperwork to see if I had recorded the tests, and most likely I had not. I have lost the reversing bleep and indicator click, does the alarm sounder have any relationship with these items - I thought a defective speaker in the steering column was the culprit and still to rectify this but it could be part of the same problem! Do you know where the alarm sounder is tucked away? (and where would I find the alarm speakers - just in case I trip the alarm )

[mike020150]

The alarm sounder is mounted near the front offside headlamp but isn't directly linked with the other warning noises so it sounds like (sorry for the pun!) you may have two separate issues to solve. Since the instrument cluster is at the heart of the car's electronic systems, any problems associated with it are best tackled initially by a Jaguar diagnostics (or appropriate Autologic) test session. That way, it's possible to understand whether the failure is an electronic communications problem, a sensor issue or a failed module/wiring matter. Mike.

[PTR200Jag]

Well, it looks like humble pie again for tea tonight..... my apologies to all.

Just been to get Jaguar out of slumber, left at the back of the garage for the last two and half weeks, all work and no play
I haven't been out in it since before the end February, all lights came on in dash and checked ok, fired it up, first turn of engine and it was away.
Rolled out through garage doors and the "restricted performance" on the information centre came up.

Left it running for a few minutes, stopped and restarted a few minutes later, still same message... took it out around the block, restricted performance? really?

Checked battery voltage on return, 14.9, that means at least the alternator is working.. shut engine down and disconnected the battery. One hour later the battery had settled at 12.39v... obviously too low... on charge now.

Now the interesting point here is the fact that I do NOT lock or alarm the car whilst in the garage so the only drain is from occasionally opening the doors/boot/and any residual stuff Jaguar deemed fit to leave live. Also, I have NO sounder when locking the car on the remote.. possible leakage here?

However, I had not used the car before the end of February more than a few times so it would appear although it does not discharge totally over two weeks it must have started the rundown process before that.

Following on from the previous discussion in this thread I will be checking discharge rates once the battery is fully charged ( New Yuasa battery in November 2014) and, hopefully, the restricted performance sign is extinguished.

By the way anyone know what the Jagauar recommended battery capacity is? Can't find it in the literature/ owners books that I have but the i/net searches hover around 100amp hour...??

I can't understand why Jaguar would put all the different sophisticated "error descriptions" up on the information centre, as reported across this forum, and not put a"Battery Low charge" one up.... once the battery charge drops to an unacceptable level for normal operation. There is NO NEED, at all, for all the other messages when its just the battery problem


Now, about that winter pack, Painter..................

[painter]

well that's a pity, thought at least one had slunk out of the factory without the hibernation gene implant, but consistent. Surprised as yours is 2002, thought this mostly affected older models.
I think Mike's suggestion re: alarm module/battery pack is probably correct, but the units are no longer available and were to say the least expensive. No chance of simply disconnecting the pack either as this will most likely result in engine shut down as the module is still powered by the main battery and will react. I did find some literature on the electrics and 30 milliamps (drain) is considered the norm when idle, so whatever the cause the drain must exceed this. My knowledge on electrickery is scant, but I do remember when this was checked at Riders in Falmouth that the problem seemed to be within the drivers door (area). As the alarm pack is on this side in the headlight area it could have been close enough for that diagnosis but I suppose the only way forward is to try a breaker or 'E' bay for a 'new'/working unit and swap. At least cure the problem or eliminate one suspect. (winter pack for next year though )

[aaj]

Hi

1. According to the SNG Barratt XK8 Parts Catalogue the original Battery was 92AH

2. The system can be set to either 'beeb' on arming/disarming or be silent (set via the Jaguar Diagnosis Equipment or Auologic alternative) so not sounding on locking/unlocking doesn't make it faulty.

3. As the XK starts to shut down systems when locked it makes sense that it will take longer to shut them down if the vehicle is left unlocked. Thus adding to the 'drain'. Opening the Doors starts to wake up some of the systems.

4. A short run around the block is not sufficient to 'top up' the Battery from the draw of starting the engine, running the various electrical systems & subsequent shut down procedure

5. In my experience the 1st showing of low battery voltage is the door glass loosing their memory on both doors (usually passenger side shows before drivers side). I've had the 'Restricted Performance' message with Low Voltage when my Alternator gave up. - The 'system' thought is was being charged as it was getting this message from the 'smart' Alternator. I'm told that as the voltage drops the car shuts down various circuits that it considers non essential.

I hope this is of help

AllanJ

[painter]

Hi aaj,
it may be that the battery can be replaced within the alarm unit but it would have to be an identical unit, may be possible to obtain. (I assume the '92AH' refers to the main battery!!)

I give my car a 20 - 25 mile run to charge the battery, usually once a week. Even this is not ideal but should be enough under normal circumstances to replace the drain from starting, wipers, aircon etc. etc. (the car is not left unlocked, it lives outside).

As the alarm used to work, usually during hail storms at 3 am, and has had no reprogramming carried out over the last 3 years, I doubt it has set itself to 'quiet'. It is not in it's nature to be so accommodating.

The window drop, (or to be precise the lack of return) is usually the first sign but this is easily solved: I don't get the multiple system management warnings now, but the annoying aspect when the battery does run down (if I have to leave the car for 11 - 14 days) is the loss of memory, which means it has to learn my driving style all over again - a frightening prospect for any car, and resetting the steering rake/reach.

None of this could be considered a serious problem, just annoying - and a winter pack won't identify the cause but will solve the problem until I find the cause.