How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

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cullywoo
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Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm
How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:24 pm

I have had a bad week with the jaguar (340).

Caught fire on Friday, who knows why. Fire burnt for 5 mins in engine bay before getting it out with an extinguisher.

Clearly in for some work here, but problem one, can't get the bonnet open. My initial tug on release clearly snapped the cable. Maybe weakened in fire or perhaps release itself damaged.

Any tips on how I could get it open? Maybe from underneath?

Many thanks in advance.
Adam

Ps moral of story always have an extinguisher in you car ( ideally 2).

oldtimer
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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby oldtimer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:08 pm

Hi Cullywoo,
Sorry to hear about your engine fire. Just possible that not opening the bonnet was a saviour.
May have flared up if the bonnet was opened - who knows.

I have never been faced with this problem but looking in the Workshop Manual as a reminder the only possibility appears to be through the grill. It looks as though you may be able to see the release lever up through the grill. I can't remember if there is a security plate to prevent this type of interference. I'm sure Martec or others will come up with a solution!

This problem has occurred to me with regard to my modern S type, god knows how one would make an entry. Mike K may give us a clue there. If it were my old '74 XJ I could tell you exactly how to make an entry.

Do let us know the outcome

Oldtimer

cullywoo
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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:18 pm

Old timer - simple but genius answer. Very easy to open through grill. I thought I'd looked but clearly not well enough.

Thanks. But it's revealed a right mess. Fire mainly on drivers side around carbs and fuel filter - I guess that's where the burny stuff is!

Martec

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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:24 pm

Hi,

I'm extremely sorry to hear of your fire, in such tight confinds I expect most things on that side have had it.

I found in the past it was very difficult to stop minor leaks on the fuel system, 50 year old castings with seal faces needing polishing flat.

I built my car from a wreck and one of the jobs I did was make the 5 (I think) wiring looms. I found the old wires with what was left of the rubber insulation lethal and used modern cable of the correct colours but slightly bigger size. In the light of our modern 'S' type cable snaping I'm glad I used what is now the older soft copper and insulation in my looms.

As the main loom goes across the car (behind the dashboard) and out through grommets to either side of the engine bay this might be the oportunity to replace it with a new loom.

Burlen fuels are very good at carburettor spares or repairs.

How long have you had the car? and what engine have you got?

Best of luck

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

cullywoo
Posts:21
Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:33 pm

Thanks Brian for the advice.

Only had car a few months. Will definitely replace main wiring loom, this has to be a main suspect and don't want to take any chances. I have the 3.8 engine. Clearly fuel system, carbs, brake lines and wiring on this side needs replacing with new (although other than wires and pipes doesn't look too bad).

Aside from ancillaries on this side - any thoughts on whether the engine block itself will have likely been damaged or are they strong old things? The fire blew over wing saving other side engine bay but destoying wing!

Trying to work out if this is an engine out job or not. For now drying to get extinguisher powder cleaned off.

Martec

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Location:North Lincs

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:18 pm

Hi,

The engine block is of the brick outhouse variety, the head can warp, but as the head gasket is pressed tin you may get away with is, nothing to burn so bolt tension should keep it straight.

The hydraulic cylinders will probably need a rebuild, but the comment 'but destroying the wing' is a concern, what do you mean, has the lead loading melted, or has it distorted a lot. The reason I ask is that these cars were early monococ (never can spell that word) and so the wing did not fit properly and were lead loaded up to 1/2" in places.

It is usual to cut out parts of the wing and replace the bits as it is a major job to replace a whole one and very expensive, look on 'Martin Robey' site as they are the quality if only panel makers for this car.

As you have a major rebuild on your hands and you say you may take the engine out (may not be necessary) it would be the ideal time to do some maintenance.

How good was your oil pressure, the bearings may be worth replacing.
A look at the clutch plate and release bearing would be worth it.
how good is the rear crankshaft seal (probably a ropeseal on your car)
As it is a 340 you should have the full synchro gearbox, was it a nice gear shirt (should be). if the oil in the overdrive is black ( burnt clutch linings) then that would be worth a look (specialist).

Updates, with a new loom you could consider an alternator and negative earth.
Also possibly add relays for the overdrive, headlights and horns if they are the big old windtones (heavy power draw through the switches).
A well worthwhile update is an 8 way fuse box to replace the massive twin fuse set up (50 amp and 33 amp) I wired my new loom to this spec and it has paid dividends when minor faults have only taken one fuse and two or three circuits out (easy fault finding).

This probably sounds worse than the original problem, but now is the time to think of these things.

How bad is the wing? can you put a picture up?

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

oldtimer
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Joined:Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:19 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby oldtimer » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:17 pm

Good Grief Martec,
Go easy on the poor lad, he's already had one shock.

We really don't know the extent of the damage. These can look so much worse than they really are. There is no mention of bonnet damage. I wonder how long the fire lasted, if it was a flash fire it may have only lasted for a short time. I would like to see some photo's

My old Fred Dibner cap had a few singe marks on it from bashing out carb fires. These days I have a large CO2 extinguisher instead. No powder to contend with then. Only use powder on Aircraft brake fires then it doesn't blow up in your face.

cullywoo
Posts:21
Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:56 pm

I've put some pictures on below. 'Destroying' front wing may be a bit extreme, paint burnt off is better description. Not entirely convinced new one is necessary., but looks ugly. Bonnet superficially ok - but underside paint bubbling.

Although a 340 it has mk2 engine and transmission (mod).

Engine very leaky before so having it out and changing some seals may not be a bad idea, but expensive. Seems sensible to get as much done as possible at time but bills may get substantial. May try to keep engine in for now.

Will post some pictures of engine bay shortly.

I guess fire was 5-10 minutes although time was slow. Small to start with but built up when hit fuel filter!

Like the idea of proper fuse box. How easy are these to integrate into replacement looms (been looking at autosparks)? What were they thinking with the standard fuse boxes, surely last thing to melt is the fuse itself!

Already on negative earth with alternator.

Thanks for all your help and advice.
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Martec

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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:21 pm

Hi,

I may sound cheeky, but I think you have been very luck. I'm looking at the lines of the enginebay/wing line, the wheel arch line and the curve of the wing line, all look good.

Event the top hose is in one piece and the battery LOOKS intact, but I wouldn't trust it now with heat on the outer casing. Also the wiper motor is near the heat so maybe faulty.

Autosparks have a very good reputation for making wiring looms and will usually make one up including the modifications you require (8 way fusebox, relays etc.).

If it was my car, I would get a new loom made (to suit the engine and later car).
Strip out the dashboard for access.
Send the complete carburrettor set up to Burlen fuels
Get a new battery and fuel filter (It took me ages to stop the filter leaking everywhere).
Get the hydraulics cylinders rebuilt or replaced (possibly cheaper)
Get some new pipes made and fitted if they need doing.
find someone to match and spray the wing and bonnet.

And get it on the road and enjoy the summer.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

Martec

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Joined:Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:08 pm
Location:North Lincs

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:22 pm

I've just enjoyed lunch in the garden and been thinking of your engine so afterthoughts:-

'What were they thinking of with only 2 fuses', some 1972 cars still only had 2 fuses, standard of the day.

Your engine is a bit leaky, what year is it, better still what letters are at the start of the engine number (head number is at the front top, can't remember where it is on the block, maybe a later head). The reason I ask is that early LA engines (like mine) did not have a rear crankshaft seal (is it a tin sump or aluminium), they relied on a scrowl to throw it back into the crankcase, which are now cr!p and leak all the time. the front crankshaft seal is a lipseal, but is basically an engine out and sump plus front cover and head off to replace (and also leaks!). These are 1960's engines and very good in their time and should not be compared to modern engines that are almost leak and oil burn free. In modified form these engines won LeMans a few times. I and my neighbours enjoy the sound of it, can't hear the 3ltr S type engine.

The engine needs to be accessed on the oil pressure, most people will tell you that next to no oil pressure is fine, but that is from a rather poor electric oil sender and gauge. I fitted a good capilliary gauge and ran with both connected for a while and at no point other than zero did they show the same reading. I'm sure Oldtimer will tell you oil flow is more important than oil pressure, but you need pressure to creat flow. A reasonable if low oil pressure when hot is OK.

I run a capilliary gauge only, in the fixed lower console and I have an XJ6 oil pump in the sump with a few mods to make it fit, so oil pressure and flow is not a problem even on 10W40 oil.

My engine is parked over an old bread tray full of rags it is so leaky (rebuilt 33,000 miles ago).

Best of luck, to be honest it looks a relatively easy fix and hopefully not too expensive, these are simple and easy cars to work on, just the lumps are big and heavy to manhandle.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

cullywoo
Posts:21
Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:51 pm

Thanks very much for all your advice. Really sounds like you know what you're talking about.

Must say don't feel that lucky, but can appreciate I may have got away with a few things here and could definitely have been worse.

Will speak to autosparks about the loom. The pipes on that side are all fried so will need replacing. I suspect new hydraulic system will be best. With the carbs is it not easier / better to just replace with new?

The engine number has always been a bit confusing. This is a KJ number as seen in front of front spark plug. When I've looked into it this says 3.4 but it is a 3.8 engine (with a big 3.8 embossed on the engine block). Oil pressure has been good, varies quite a bit (not a capillary gauge), never below 20 (lowest when warm and idling) up to 40-50 when under power. Does make a mess wherever I park it, but as you say can't really expect a leak free engine.

Martec

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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Hi,

I bought a total wreck in 1992, but an honest 3.8ltr as I checked all the numbers first. It was the 7th car I phoned up about and the only one I went to see, the numbers didn't match (engine and chassis numbers) on the other 6 cars. I spent 3 years welding it and a further 5 years overhauling everything. So I got to know Jaguars history and how this car developed and it shortcomings from 8 years reading everything I could find. I still missed that the wrong front springs were fitted for the first 11 years on the road, and paid for it with neck and back ache, so I have learnt the hard way.

Hopefully Auto sparks can fix you up with a loom to your spec, its not worth taking chances with brakepipes, replace them as necessary. The hydraulic cylinders have changed over the years, Brake master cylinder is still the same as 14 years ago but it is itself different to the original. the Clutch master cylinder has changed inside and it is best to simple replace it.

I have always used Burlen fuels for carburrettor and fuel pump spares and think they are good (probably not the cheapest!). It is very expensive to buy a full carb set up and Burlen can advise on the best course of action, give them a ring!

The fact that your engine is a 3.8 in a 340 is not totally unusual, when the old 'S' type came on the scene then the MkII was 'cheapened', but a very few at special request were I beleive fitted with the 3.8 rather than the 3.4 ltr engine at the factory.

The 'KJ' cylinder head code refers to a 3.4 ltr head, but the engine number is on the engine block, below the carbs on the boss to the oil filter and originally both would have been the same. I have just tried to see mine and I can't even get a light onto it! so removal of the carbs is necessary to see it clearly (I hope you have double jointed fingers). It is not unusual to have a different head to block number as the aluminium corroded around the Jacket water holes to the block. I have an LB head on an LA block (both 3.8ltr).

If the engine was running well then don't worry about it for now, if you can contact whoever built the engine and find out what was done so much the better. Its nice to know what you have got. Ken Jenkins has often written in the magazine about what heads will fit which blocks (his phone number is at the front of the magazine and he is a nice guy).

Are you looking to do most of the disassembly and rebuild yourself or use a mechanic? These cars are a bit more involved than the average 70's car, but not much.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

cullywoo
Posts:21
Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:58 am

I'm fairly keen to do this myself, but not sure if beyond me (& time always at premium - I've got a 1year old and 3 yr old to play with). Getting engine out certainly won't be a good idea myself (don't have equipment apart from anything). I guess if it comes out would make working on rest much easier for me and allow repainting on inside of wing. But I'd probably send engine off for refurb if I take it out.

Spent hours yesterday trying to clean extinguisher powder out of engine bay. This has now got me worried as clearly very corrosive stuff. Already bringing out rust on non stainless bolts and various components. hard to shift. Desperately hope none in engine, the powder accumulated around spark plugs is a worry.

Starting to creat a job list and look in Haynes (always makes it look easy). May get some quotes, just to see.

Had it booked in for show at Harewood today, that's gonna be depressing going without it!

Martec

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Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby Martec » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:45 pm

Hi,

Assuming the engine was running when the extingisher was set off then the big air filter will have stopped most of it. If the engine was stopped then it is even less likely to be in the engine.

It looks horrible but it is only paint and mechanical lumps that can be replaced.

If you were happy with the engine before then there is no need to remove it now. Photograph everything and make drawings and notes as you strip it down. Once you have the bonnet off, air filter and carbs off you will find you have a lot of access to the inner wing to clean and repaint (by hand).

The inlets to the carbs will tell you how far the powder got, also it is an old engine, no cats or lambdas to worry about. Once you have the powder off the outside of the engine and enginebay you can use a big spanner to turn the engine over by hand to keep everything oiled and free.

Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.

1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated

cullywoo
Posts:21
Joined:Tue May 13, 2014 6:18 pm

Re: How to open bonnet if catch cable snaps?

Postby cullywoo » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:41 pm

The engine was off when extinguisher went off so as you say unlikely to have got through. It is in the air intake beyond the filter but this is because rubber connector had a hole burnt in it.

Engine was sweet as the proverbial nut before so i have no burning desire to pull it apart if it can be avoided. The brake cylinder etc look a bit tricky to get to but I'm not scared of some grazed knuckles. I'll get carb assembly off photograph and get in touch with Burlen fuels. Maybe get the loom ordered ASAP too.

Need to stop dwelling and get fixing.

Thanks again
Adam


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