Removal of worn locking wheel nut - front near side wheel

[colin1234]

Hi Mike

I run a november 2004 car with the optional 18" Monaco split rim alloys fitted from new.

I bought the car in January of this year & need to change the front brake pads, but cannot get the locking wheel nut off. As you are probably aware this is a 2 part item & the innner part appears to be badly worn. The removal tool slips over the outer part fine, but will not pick up on the inner part. i have lined up the outer & inner parts so that the removal tool goes all the way on, but it will not remove the locking wheel nut.

Any suggestions?

Drilling out seems to be the only solution, but i fear that this will potentially ruin the wheel & the hub with costly consequences!

Hope to hear from you soon.

Regards

Colin Pease

[J44EAG]

Hello Colin,

I must appologise for not replying earlier. For some reason I failed to clock your posting on the 7th April.

I assume you have the later type of wheel nuts and removal tool.

The early type, round internals with a couple of easy shearing lugs were bad enough.

The later type are subject to rare failure and are even more difficult to deal with due to the nut being of irregular hex shape.

You may have to resort to bashing a suitable sized socket on to the nut and then attempt to turn the stuck nut and socket. If that fails, then the method you suggest may be the only option other than drilling out the stud and replacing once the wheel is off.

From experience it is a hell of a game. You might need some professional assistance.

My local indipendent Jaguar garage in Portsmouth now suggests that owners remove the locking units in spite of the security risk to avoid this nasty problem.

Usually this hateful issue is caused by the use of hammer guns used by uneducated tyre fitters. If only they could understand and visualise the mayhem that is caused by such actions.

There is no easy answer to this Colin.

My appologies again for the late reply.

Mike

[jeff1954]

Hi Mike.

I've got exactly the same problem as Colin had. Do you know how he got the nut off. I know his post was sent some time ago and I tried to PM him but the message would not send.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

My post above still holds good. "A hell of a game"!

I assume your irregular hex wheel removal tool is undamaged and still fit for service.

The later nuts will be very difficult to capture even with a tight high quality bashable socket removal technique.

I suppose a final resort may be to get the car on a ramp and try to grind off the top hat section of the rear of the stud. If that could be done then the stud could be punched though the hub complete with wheel nut on the other end. The stud and nut could then be replaced.

Studs are not available singularly from Jaguar. Not good. This means finding a stud supplier or buying a scrap hub and salvaging from that.

I believe there is a tool kit system available to remove damaged nuts. No doubt expensive.

Some garages have the kit to remove damaged nuts. perhaps the easiest solution would be to try to find a suitable garage locally that could assist.

I only wish I could help further. Can anyone else offer a solution?

Mike

[SteveKK]

If you can remove the other 3 locking nuts and source replacements. I've recently replaced them on my car with McGuard locking nuts, with I've used on several cars and never had a problem with them. If the other 3 come off OK I would recommend hammering the locking nut socket onto the damage nut, making sure it is down as far as possible and hopefully you should be able to undo with a breaker bar.

You may be able to scarifice an 18mm socket or the imperial size that's just below 19mm (3/4"?). Expect potential damage to the socket though.

I was lucky and this worked for all 4 of my locking nuts - I've a feeling the garage damage the locking nut socket, hence causing the problem. I knew they would need replacing as the socket looked worn, but I had remove 2 of them prior tohaving the tyres replaced.

Regards,
Steve

[J44EAG]

That works with a standard equal sided hex wheel nut as fitted to pre 2002 cars. Had to do this three times on an early model. (Early type identified by chrome caps with an embossed " - " marking. Removal tool is a thick walled tube with two internal lugs that suffer metal fatigue and sheer off leaving the wheel nut on the car!)

The problem is that on later cars, the hex is irregular and the above method is unlikely to be successful or indeed possible. (Identified by domed head on nut. Removal tool is a thin walled metal irregular hex socket which WILL split and fail if used on a hammer gun.)

Neither wheel lock nut type is robust or long lived. Alternative after market locking systems may indeed be rather more satisfactory in service.

If you have the early type, I strongly suggest you examine the removal tool for potential lug failure. I`d also suggest immediate removal of that early type of locking system from a car so fitted. Failure is very likely. The later irregular hex type is somewhat better but still miles off being reliable.

Mike

[oldtimer]

Hi Colin and Mike,
We've been here before. I made a submission on Mon 8th Oct 2012 in connection with this subject, do you remember!
At the time I was trying demonstrate the difficulty of removing a road wheel off the hub after the nuts had been taken off, all due to neglect. The thread drifted off the importance of regular wheel removal to the merrits of using or not using grease on wheel studs. Lets set that aside for the moment.

I have tried banging an undersize socket onto a "nackered" nut and usually failed. The process of trying to re-form a nut with a socket requires an enormous impact. Perhaps with the item on an anvil and using s sledge hammer there may be some success. With the aforementioned loads required I would not want my vehicle being subjected to that sort of treatment.

Mike, I have never ever attempted to replace a hub stud and the very thought of being told to do so would fill me with trepadation. The very access problem is enough to put me off to start with.

I don't doubt for one moment there are folks out there who have successfully removed both nuts and studs and will tell me that I'm talking a load of "old cobblers". May be so, but not on my car.

Collin, You may find this a bit hard to accept but the only remedy that I can see is to sacrifice the wheel and cut it off. This can be achieved by using a Starrett hole cutter. The cutter is a steel tube with hacksaw type teeth around the lower edge. This in turn attaches to an arbour which is mounted into a drill. The selected cutter needs to pass over the offending nut so that aluminium is being cut and not steel. As there is the possibility that the rim is corroded to the hub great care needs to be taken to ensure the hub mounting face is not attacked with the cutter.

After all the cost and agony of overcomming this problem please take care that nobody has the opportunity to damage your new locking nut with a tyre fitters impact wrench. It should not be used to either fit or remove these nuts they are not suitable for such treatment. Use a socket and bar and finally torque load to the correct loading.

Colin, Despite having only used hand tools to remove/replace all the wheelnuts on my car I have recently needed to buy a new set of locking nuts and key because of excess wear. Can you imagine being a long way from home and being faced with a flat tyre and cannot remove the wheel! During the early days of ownership of this car I failed to remove the locking nut key and cast it to the wind - gone for ever. So I purchased two new keys , one for the boot, and one welded to a 4" extention bar, painted red and kept in the garage tool kit.

I trust that both this and my previous comments on the subject help with your final decision. I shall be interested to hear what our learned collegues have to say

Please keep in touch with both progress and solution

Regards Oldtimer

[STR52]

Hi Jeff,
Don,t despair,
I,ve had this very problem on my 2002 car,
I don't do a lot of mechanical work myself so help came from my local independant TL Jaguar.
They used a company based in Hampshire called Thread Doctor, who drilled the nut off on a time and materials basis, half a day,s labour and 2 drill bits not cheap! but a third of the cost of a new Zeus wheel.
The stud was damaged and replaced as a single item something a Jaguar specialist would have in his scrap bin as the whole hub is replaced when changing wheel bearings on S-Types.
I see from your post you are in Stockport so this information is not going to be much help?
I would have a look localy for a simular company, Internet or ask at your local garage, before you attack your Wheel. You are not alone this must happen quite frequently, not only to Jags!
My wheels are on and off two or three times a year and have clean threads and copper slip hub faces. Great care has been taken in my presence to only use hand tools on the locking nuts and touque to the corect Nm.
These standard Locking wheel nuts do wear and I would add them to the list of consumerable items or change to a one piece design. so you can see the wear on the nut or key.

Good Luck

Andre

[Martec]

Another possible solution is to mask the wheel with a piece of thin plywood with a hole in it at the offending wheel nut. Then using a piece of Hexagonal bar weld this to the old nut, you would need to be sure of your welding for this to work. A socket and bar on the hex bar will probably work.

If nothing else the heat and cooling will have loosened it a bit. Or try and weld runs onto the nut for the socket to be driven onto for grip.

Brian

[jeff1954]

Hi All
Thanks for all your tips and suggestions. After much nail biting and head scratching I took the car to a local auto welding outfit . He simply welded a steel rod onto the outer domed part of the nut and applied some up and down motion (which broke the dome off) Then welded an old short extension to the inner part of the nut then using a small T/Bar undid the nut.

This was all done in about 15 mins using a Mig Welder with no damage to the wheel. I was so relieved I gladly paid him the £30 quid that he told me it would cost over the phone a few days earlier. I've bought 4 new Jaguar nuts off ebay for £10 plus P/P and won't be using locking ones again. I hope that this post will be of help to others.

PS If anyone in the Stockport area would like the phone number ect of this exellent garage please PM me for details.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

Great result and thanks for letting us all know.

One for our achieve of desperate measures.

Mike

[oldtimer]

Hi Jeff,
I'm pleased you have successfully removed the offending wheel nut.

I can understand your decision to discard the locking wheel nuts which do seem to be a constant sourse of problems and replace them with standard ones.

Wheel security or not thats the dilema, I guess many owners have already gone the route you have chosen.

Still a question mark for me!

Regards Oldtimer