Quick battery/starter question
On a few occasions I have came out to the car and she just goes "click" sometimes it will start ok after a couple of "clicks" but obviously something is not right? What voltage should I be looking for as a quick test with a meter? I'll probably take it down to my mechanic and get him to test it properly anyway but I'd like to have half a clue before I go down
Clicking on start up
BMC............any solutions re the clicking ........did it get sorted out? .....Joe 
My initial starting point would be the starter solenoid connections for corrosion. A good clean up of the connectors, studs and tails lug ends to begin with. If that were unsuccessful, I would undertake a voltage test when the key is turned to the start position. An assistant will be required as you won`t be able to be under the car and in it at the same time.
If that fails, I`d look at servicability issues on the solenoid and starter.
Corrosion causes more problems than anything else in the electrical department. Check also that you have at least 12.8 volts at the battery terminals off load with the engine switched off and around 14.4 volts with the engine running. That increase in voltage proves the alternator is recharging the battery.
Dispose of any battery showing less than 11.5 volts. It is unlikely to recharge and hold that charge satisfactualy. I will immediately skip any battery under 11.8 volts in the marine industry. At that stage they can never be reliable. The same goes for a car, particually a JaguarDaimler which needs good voltage to fire the Power Train control module and associated injection and ancilliary services.
Much comment of batteries and voltage can also be found on the XK8 BB site where for example those cars appear very affected by dud batteries and lack of voltage. S-types also suffer from the same scenarios ,as the S and XK8 have closely related electrical systems.
Hope this helps.
Mike Kennedy. S-type Coordinator.
If that fails, I`d look at servicability issues on the solenoid and starter.
Corrosion causes more problems than anything else in the electrical department. Check also that you have at least 12.8 volts at the battery terminals off load with the engine switched off and around 14.4 volts with the engine running. That increase in voltage proves the alternator is recharging the battery.
Dispose of any battery showing less than 11.5 volts. It is unlikely to recharge and hold that charge satisfactualy. I will immediately skip any battery under 11.8 volts in the marine industry. At that stage they can never be reliable. The same goes for a car, particually a JaguarDaimler which needs good voltage to fire the Power Train control module and associated injection and ancilliary services.
Much comment of batteries and voltage can also be found on the XK8 BB site where for example those cars appear very affected by dud batteries and lack of voltage. S-types also suffer from the same scenarios ,as the S and XK8 have closely related electrical systems.
Hope this helps.
Mike Kennedy. S-type Coordinator.
Battery
Re the testing of the battery........i had mine tested at a main factor locally with his electric gauge.........it showed OK.........so i had the alternator tested and this showed OK after three days of running around i went to a car electrcian who did a drop test (the test with the poker like rods with a gauge in the middle) which immeadiatly found a dead cell.
I replaced the battery with a heavy duty diesel battery and this has been fine..........however to insure you get no problems buy a Cetec trickle charger and plug it into the garage electricity point then you can leave it connected up for as long as you need to without having to check evey few hours.........your battery will always be fully charged when you need it most...........JOE
I replaced the battery with a heavy duty diesel battery and this has been fine..........however to insure you get no problems buy a Cetec trickle charger and plug it into the garage electricity point then you can leave it connected up for as long as you need to without having to check evey few hours.........your battery will always be fully charged when you need it most...........JOE
I use a drop tester for testing batteries.
Think of it as a loading device. Effectively an electrical element rather akin to an electric kettle element. It gets mighty hot when the switch is pressed and places a high load on the battery.
The volt meter on the unit is specially calibrated and it is possible to see the speed at which the voltage decays whilst the load is applied.
A sharp rise in the meter needle after the load is cut, often indicates sulphated cells and capacity reduced.
Note however that it is possible in some battery failure situations for the battery still to show good voltage although the ability of the battery to have good storage capacity is severly impaired and sufficient cranking amps may not be available when the starter motor is operated.
That means the battery is still bust, Joe!
Mike Kennedy. S-type Co-ordinator
Think of it as a loading device. Effectively an electrical element rather akin to an electric kettle element. It gets mighty hot when the switch is pressed and places a high load on the battery.
The volt meter on the unit is specially calibrated and it is possible to see the speed at which the voltage decays whilst the load is applied.
A sharp rise in the meter needle after the load is cut, often indicates sulphated cells and capacity reduced.
Note however that it is possible in some battery failure situations for the battery still to show good voltage although the ability of the battery to have good storage capacity is severly impaired and sufficient cranking amps may not be available when the starter motor is operated.
That means the battery is still bust, Joe!
Mike Kennedy. S-type Co-ordinator
It sounds to me as if your battery was rather low when you originally posted your query.
Now, given a bit of use, the battery sounds in a rather more healthy condition. Clicking solenoids usually indicate that a battery is rather short of stored charge.
Worth checking battery fluid levels and perhaps installing a small switch mode intellingent mains charger as Joe suggested. If the car is not in regular use this will help maintain good voltage and prevent battery degradation.
Mike
Now, given a bit of use, the battery sounds in a rather more healthy condition. Clicking solenoids usually indicate that a battery is rather short of stored charge.
Worth checking battery fluid levels and perhaps installing a small switch mode intellingent mains charger as Joe suggested. If the car is not in regular use this will help maintain good voltage and prevent battery degradation.
Mike
Battery condition
BMC..........i had an earlier email from the forum re one of the reasons your battery is playing up..............
Joe cold weather can sharply reduce the efficiency of lead-acid batteries,resulting in low voltage,trouble starting etc.....and then when it warms up all is well again....... provided the battery is basically healthy.
Modern electronic components draw very little current,but will not work at all if their voltage is below the voltage which will switch on the transistors (the gate voltage).
Very cold weather could very well be an explanation for electrical and starting problems which vanish as suddenly as they arrive.
Joe cold weather can sharply reduce the efficiency of lead-acid batteries,resulting in low voltage,trouble starting etc.....and then when it warms up all is well again....... provided the battery is basically healthy.
Modern electronic components draw very little current,but will not work at all if their voltage is below the voltage which will switch on the transistors (the gate voltage).
Very cold weather could very well be an explanation for electrical and starting problems which vanish as suddenly as they arrive.
-
steveandtina
- Posts:41
- Joined:Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:05 pm
- Location:sheffield
Re Joe`s posting above and the quote therein.
How true those words are. Especially with an aging battery where the plates are beginning to sulphate, chemical reaction is reduced due to the cold and micro molecular activity is therefore reduced. Voltage potential difference(PD) between the pos and neg terminals falls with a reduction in temperature. Conversely, it rises when temperatures are elevated. Basic physics.
Our cars are designed to function at a nominal figure of 12volts to give generally good service. Both transistorised and chip based control modules are designed to operate with a good PD available at the battery terminals. When that falls below a pre determined factor, then system failure occurs.
Fuel pumps and ecu controlled injector systems shut down together with starter reluctance due to high current draw. The more starter current drawn from the battery the worse the PD becomes at the terminals. This is the classic "flat" battery which is better discribed as a part discharged state with insufficient PD or stored charge volume to effect an engine start.
A new battery even in the coldest conditions will have full internal plate surface capacity available from which to start the engine. The battery fitted will by design be large enough in capacity to run all services on the car without excessively "straining" the battery.
As a battery ages sulphatation of the plates occurs and capacity reduces. In effect what started out as say, a 100 amp hour battery might reduce over long service and age to that of a battery of perhaps 70amp hour. At that point its internal capacity may be insufficient to provide enough cranking amps to start an engine. Think of the effect as being similar to putting a Mini battery in a Jag. Would it start? I think not! Not sufficient cranking amps and the battery suffers a hernia.
So, we accept that the cold affects PD and therefore cranking amp availability. If the capacity and overall general health of the battery is good in cold weather, then your engine will probably start as there is sufficient PD and cranking amps available. When the battery is cold, old, tired and sickly, a starting attempt will possibly fail. That is a battery coronary!
Batteries fail generally after 4-7 years dependent on use, maintenance and quality of construction. In long term idle state storage, they should be placed on a timber bench with a piece of polystyreen foam placed under the battery as a thermal insulator. Electrolite levels should be above the plates.
Stored batteries either on or off the car should be serviced on a continual basis by a SWITCH MODE MAINS CHARGER of the kind that Joe suggests.
Switch mode means this. The charger is "intelligent" and operates as follows.
Upon initial switch on, it goes to "boost mode" untill it reads a preset voltage within its internal circuitry. Then it switches electronically to "equilibrate mode". At this stage it gently pulses voltage into the battery to produce a battery terminal PD of approximately 12.8 volts. Once the battery reaches an equalised or equilibrated state the charger switches to "float mode"and senses any PD change at the terminals which may be due to systems such as the alarm or immobiliser unit on the car drawing current.
Whilst charging the battery, the charger would also recognise PD drop when for instance a door is opened and courtesy lights come on. The charger would increase its charge rate to compensate up to its rated maximum ampage design ie 6amps, 10 amps etc depending upon the size or make of the charger. Obviously a 6amp charger would fail to keep up with a 10amp load and the battery would then fall into a discharging state of minus 4 amps.
The rule I apply for correct selection of a charging unit is that it should have an output equivalent to 5% of the battery capacity in amp hours. Therefore a 100amp hour battery should be charged with a charger rated at not less than 5 amps. A 5 amp charger would therefore be an appropriate sized unit to apply to our Jaguars where we generally find around a 90amp battery fitted in our cars.
Owing to, and indeed because of the design of intelligent switch mode charging units, they are particularly useful when linked to batteries of vehicles placed in long term storeage. It is not neccesary to disconnect the battery from the car during long term lay up. The units are self contained and require no adjustment or interference in use. To obtain the best recharge and service potential, the charger should be left switched on permanently and be left to its own operation without owner interference.ie switching on and off at the mains because the owner thinks that "the battery might have had enough"! Leave the thing to its own initiative!!
The only other recommendation is to check electrolite levels once a month as a precautionary check.
Intelligent chargers drop their charge rate down as battery voltage (PD) rises. They differ markedly from the old style Halfords type emergency charger found in many of our workshops or garages. Those are constant voltage units that are capable of boiling a battery to extinction if left connected to a battery on a long term basis. They are best used in a flat battery situation for a couple of hours only to restore charge on a car where for instance headlights may have been left on and the car will not start.
Remember age, neglect and cold affect a battery greatly. They do not last for ever and must be regarded as a consumable item in the same fashion as brake pads or petrol! Time takes its toll.
There you go. As taught to me during a three year Licenced Aircraft Engineers course at Brunel College, Bristol under Civil Aviation Authority approved agency. You see, I haven`t forgotten even after thirteen years!
Mike Kennedy. S-type Coordinator
How true those words are. Especially with an aging battery where the plates are beginning to sulphate, chemical reaction is reduced due to the cold and micro molecular activity is therefore reduced. Voltage potential difference(PD) between the pos and neg terminals falls with a reduction in temperature. Conversely, it rises when temperatures are elevated. Basic physics.
Our cars are designed to function at a nominal figure of 12volts to give generally good service. Both transistorised and chip based control modules are designed to operate with a good PD available at the battery terminals. When that falls below a pre determined factor, then system failure occurs.
Fuel pumps and ecu controlled injector systems shut down together with starter reluctance due to high current draw. The more starter current drawn from the battery the worse the PD becomes at the terminals. This is the classic "flat" battery which is better discribed as a part discharged state with insufficient PD or stored charge volume to effect an engine start.
A new battery even in the coldest conditions will have full internal plate surface capacity available from which to start the engine. The battery fitted will by design be large enough in capacity to run all services on the car without excessively "straining" the battery.
As a battery ages sulphatation of the plates occurs and capacity reduces. In effect what started out as say, a 100 amp hour battery might reduce over long service and age to that of a battery of perhaps 70amp hour. At that point its internal capacity may be insufficient to provide enough cranking amps to start an engine. Think of the effect as being similar to putting a Mini battery in a Jag. Would it start? I think not! Not sufficient cranking amps and the battery suffers a hernia.
So, we accept that the cold affects PD and therefore cranking amp availability. If the capacity and overall general health of the battery is good in cold weather, then your engine will probably start as there is sufficient PD and cranking amps available. When the battery is cold, old, tired and sickly, a starting attempt will possibly fail. That is a battery coronary!
Batteries fail generally after 4-7 years dependent on use, maintenance and quality of construction. In long term idle state storage, they should be placed on a timber bench with a piece of polystyreen foam placed under the battery as a thermal insulator. Electrolite levels should be above the plates.
Stored batteries either on or off the car should be serviced on a continual basis by a SWITCH MODE MAINS CHARGER of the kind that Joe suggests.
Switch mode means this. The charger is "intelligent" and operates as follows.
Upon initial switch on, it goes to "boost mode" untill it reads a preset voltage within its internal circuitry. Then it switches electronically to "equilibrate mode". At this stage it gently pulses voltage into the battery to produce a battery terminal PD of approximately 12.8 volts. Once the battery reaches an equalised or equilibrated state the charger switches to "float mode"and senses any PD change at the terminals which may be due to systems such as the alarm or immobiliser unit on the car drawing current.
Whilst charging the battery, the charger would also recognise PD drop when for instance a door is opened and courtesy lights come on. The charger would increase its charge rate to compensate up to its rated maximum ampage design ie 6amps, 10 amps etc depending upon the size or make of the charger. Obviously a 6amp charger would fail to keep up with a 10amp load and the battery would then fall into a discharging state of minus 4 amps.
The rule I apply for correct selection of a charging unit is that it should have an output equivalent to 5% of the battery capacity in amp hours. Therefore a 100amp hour battery should be charged with a charger rated at not less than 5 amps. A 5 amp charger would therefore be an appropriate sized unit to apply to our Jaguars where we generally find around a 90amp battery fitted in our cars.
Owing to, and indeed because of the design of intelligent switch mode charging units, they are particularly useful when linked to batteries of vehicles placed in long term storeage. It is not neccesary to disconnect the battery from the car during long term lay up. The units are self contained and require no adjustment or interference in use. To obtain the best recharge and service potential, the charger should be left switched on permanently and be left to its own operation without owner interference.ie switching on and off at the mains because the owner thinks that "the battery might have had enough"! Leave the thing to its own initiative!!
The only other recommendation is to check electrolite levels once a month as a precautionary check.
Intelligent chargers drop their charge rate down as battery voltage (PD) rises. They differ markedly from the old style Halfords type emergency charger found in many of our workshops or garages. Those are constant voltage units that are capable of boiling a battery to extinction if left connected to a battery on a long term basis. They are best used in a flat battery situation for a couple of hours only to restore charge on a car where for instance headlights may have been left on and the car will not start.
Remember age, neglect and cold affect a battery greatly. They do not last for ever and must be regarded as a consumable item in the same fashion as brake pads or petrol! Time takes its toll.
There you go. As taught to me during a three year Licenced Aircraft Engineers course at Brunel College, Bristol under Civil Aviation Authority approved agency. You see, I haven`t forgotten even after thirteen years!
Mike Kennedy. S-type Coordinator
Re: Quick battery/starter question
Can you leave the Ctek charger conected to the battery with it situated in the boot with none of the terminals disconnected. I have read a thread earlier which said this could damage the alternator diode.
Gordon
Gordon
XJ6 X350 Sovereign
Chairman. Doncaster and District Region
Email. doncaster.district@gmail.com
Previous Jaguars.
XJ8 Sovereign in Seafrost
S Type in Red
Chairman. Doncaster and District Region
Email. doncaster.district@gmail.com
Previous Jaguars.
XJ8 Sovereign in Seafrost
S Type in Red
Re: Quick battery/starter question
My battery charger in my boat is permanently connected to battery terminals. I do not disconnect it if I start engines, disconnect from 240 volt AC shore power and or put to sea.
I cannot understand how or why a disconnected, or indeed a connected mains powered charger could possibly damage an alternator diode pack.
What will damage an alternator is running a car engine with the alternator still driven by a drive belt from the engine with either battery terminals not connected to the battery or wiring harness connections not connected to the alternator.
Mike
I cannot understand how or why a disconnected, or indeed a connected mains powered charger could possibly damage an alternator diode pack.
What will damage an alternator is running a car engine with the alternator still driven by a drive belt from the engine with either battery terminals not connected to the battery or wiring harness connections not connected to the alternator.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Quick battery/starter question
Thanks Mike,
just as I thought. Just needed confirmation. And Happy birthday, that's a pint from me to you when we eventually meet.
Gordon
just as I thought. Just needed confirmation. And Happy birthday, that's a pint from me to you when we eventually meet.
Gordon
XJ6 X350 Sovereign
Chairman. Doncaster and District Region
Email. doncaster.district@gmail.com
Previous Jaguars.
XJ8 Sovereign in Seafrost
S Type in Red
Chairman. Doncaster and District Region
Email. doncaster.district@gmail.com
Previous Jaguars.
XJ8 Sovereign in Seafrost
S Type in Red
Re: Quick battery/starter question
Thanks, Gordon.
Need to recover the car after last nights celebrations. Can`t remember where I left it but my lady friend says it is up on the top of the South Downs. Hope it is still there and in one piece.
Mike
Need to recover the car after last nights celebrations. Can`t remember where I left it but my lady friend says it is up on the top of the South Downs. Hope it is still there and in one piece.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests