Just wanted to see what others feel re: the whole gearbox oil change issue. I just had the car in to http://www.cfsmotors.co.uk/ and they have done a marvellous job on my XJ8.
I had a quick discussion with them about oil change on the transmission and they said to me that it's a bit of a debatable point whether it's worth doing when the gearbox is doing just fine (mine is a 2000 year with 83000 miles). They were saying that given an oil change will cost £200-£300 and a replacement gearbox (recon I assume) is £1200 fitted - they felt that it certainly isn't a 'no-brainer' having it done - indeed they advised me to leave alone.
Given their reputation (they service the JDHT vehicles) I rather respected their integrity in not getting me to spend another £300 but I'd be interested in views from the forum.
Saxon
Gearbox oil change - a debate
I've a 1998 LWB Sovereign. I've just this week had mine changed primarily because I support the view that preventative measures are better than cures and I love the car. Without a crystal ball it'll always be difficult to justify the economic argument and thus my decision was largely an emotive one.
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Brakebuster
- Posts:3145
- Joined:Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location:Gloucester UK
i was in my local Jag dealership on Thursday, and asked how much a gearbox oil change would be,
for a 1999 4ltr ( fully electronic gearbox, as the 3.2 is only semi-electronic ) the numbers came in like this
gearbox oil = £100
labour = £150
however, as i know them quite well in there ( dont ask about the XJS project ) they would give me 10% off parts and 20% off the labour costs, a saving of £50 and the job done for £200 all in
they did not mention whether it was/wasnt beneficial to a box that is not showing any problems at this time
BB ( hmm, shall i / shant i ?? )
for a 1999 4ltr ( fully electronic gearbox, as the 3.2 is only semi-electronic ) the numbers came in like this
gearbox oil = £100
labour = £150
however, as i know them quite well in there ( dont ask about the XJS project ) they would give me 10% off parts and 20% off the labour costs, a saving of £50 and the job done for £200 all in
they did not mention whether it was/wasnt beneficial to a box that is not showing any problems at this time
BB ( hmm, shall i / shant i ?? )
GEARBOX OIL CHANGE PRICES
In my own opinion in every case of issues Jaguar, like a lot of questions in the forum, we do have an alternative that will banish all doubts as far as im concerned................Depending on where you are based of course.
In a typical issue on the oil change on a gearbox, recently we have had chapter and verse in the magazine from David Marks on the details of a gearbox oil change.
If i lived anywhere near Nottingham, i would be inclined to have the work priced and done at Davids garage....there cant be a much better alternative........An email to David Marks would give you a price for the job done.........then you go from there.
If you live further away and the alternative price you get is significantly dearer pre book the job into Daves take it in early and wait for it.
The satisfaction of having the job done by someone who knows all about the job is worth a few quid im sure.........Joe
In a typical issue on the oil change on a gearbox, recently we have had chapter and verse in the magazine from David Marks on the details of a gearbox oil change.
If i lived anywhere near Nottingham, i would be inclined to have the work priced and done at Davids garage....there cant be a much better alternative........An email to David Marks would give you a price for the job done.........then you go from there.
If you live further away and the alternative price you get is significantly dearer pre book the job into Daves take it in early and wait for it.
The satisfaction of having the job done by someone who knows all about the job is worth a few quid im sure.........Joe
I have to agree with dredru. One should not wait for the symptoms to appear, because it's probably too late then. The oil change, although maybe fixing the problems temporarily, will only postpone the inevitable, which is rebuilding/replacing the gearbox.
I don't see the philosophy behind the comparison of the costs between oil changes and the replacement unit. Replacing a gearbox and getting that done without any side-effects and symptoms is of course possible, but I have heard other stories also - like worse shifting quality, prop shaft judder etc. Although these can (usually)be fixed, it can take time and cause trouble.
I sometimes feel shops reason their "do-not-touch-it" -opinion with a fear that the fresh oil will have a washing effect - all the dirt starts moving inside, thus possibly resulting i.e. in a clogged valve body. The customer will hold the shop responsible for ruining the proper box operation. This is why some shops literally don't want to touch an auto box at all except maybe for replacing the whole unit.
Finally - aren't we all, when looking for a used car, advised to check the color and smell of the gearbox oil to estimate the expected lifespan of the unit?
Rant mode off...
Cheers,
- Ari -
I don't see the philosophy behind the comparison of the costs between oil changes and the replacement unit. Replacing a gearbox and getting that done without any side-effects and symptoms is of course possible, but I have heard other stories also - like worse shifting quality, prop shaft judder etc. Although these can (usually)be fixed, it can take time and cause trouble.
I sometimes feel shops reason their "do-not-touch-it" -opinion with a fear that the fresh oil will have a washing effect - all the dirt starts moving inside, thus possibly resulting i.e. in a clogged valve body. The customer will hold the shop responsible for ruining the proper box operation. This is why some shops literally don't want to touch an auto box at all except maybe for replacing the whole unit.
Finally - aren't we all, when looking for a used car, advised to check the color and smell of the gearbox oil to estimate the expected lifespan of the unit?
Rant mode off...
Cheers,
- Ari -
1999 XJR - 7" LP, Quaife ATB etc.
buying a car??
Ari........i cant see anyone here going to those lengths when buying a secondhand car, a short sharp answer would be the order of the day.
Although a good all round inspection of the vehicle is nessessary it does have its limits as to how far you can go....or are prepared to go.
But if thats what you do up your way all power to your elbow mate.
Joe
Although a good all round inspection of the vehicle is nessessary it does have its limits as to how far you can go....or are prepared to go.
But if thats what you do up your way all power to your elbow mate.
Joe
I think I must agree with ari's first post that many dealers/garages won't recommend changing the oil for fear of literally stirring up trouble. I had my oil changed by David Marks at about 75K miles (no blame attached to him) for "feelgood" reasons, but my gearbox failed last year with a valve body problem at about 95Kmiles.
I would say it costs a lot more than £1200 suggested by Saxon for a rebuilt/recon box. I went to a ZF-approved centre: fully fitted with a 1-year warranty, it was more like £2200 by the time you add the VAT. Not cheap by any standard, however I think I will leave well alone this time - if it fails, it fails. The rebuild cost is apparently the same regardless of what parts are actually replaced during the overhaul. (now 107K and counting!)
Regards,
I would say it costs a lot more than £1200 suggested by Saxon for a rebuilt/recon box. I went to a ZF-approved centre: fully fitted with a 1-year warranty, it was more like £2200 by the time you add the VAT. Not cheap by any standard, however I think I will leave well alone this time - if it fails, it fails. The rebuild cost is apparently the same regardless of what parts are actually replaced during the overhaul. (now 107K and counting!)
Regards,
Brian
2006 X350 3.5 V8 Sport Premium in Midnight / Ivory
1969 Triumph Daytona rider
Previous XJs:
X350 2.7 TDVi in Westminster Blue / Barley
X308 4.0 V8 in Meteorite / Warm Charcoal
X300 3.2 in Spruce / Barley
XJ40 3.2 Sport in Gunmetal / Saville Grey
2006 X350 3.5 V8 Sport Premium in Midnight / Ivory
1969 Triumph Daytona rider
Previous XJs:
X350 2.7 TDVi in Westminster Blue / Barley
X308 4.0 V8 in Meteorite / Warm Charcoal
X300 3.2 in Spruce / Barley
XJ40 3.2 Sport in Gunmetal / Saville Grey
To do or not to do
Brian,a good point, but i always say that have a look at the situation you personally have........the choice is are you going to keep the car for a long period,? or are you contemplating changing it in the near future.
Keeping it and knowing the costs is one thing but is it cheaper to trade and get another vehicle.
Even a couple of thousand is worth the expense for a major part if you weigh the alternatives up.......but you must want to keep that particular car.....Joe
Keeping it and knowing the costs is one thing but is it cheaper to trade and get another vehicle.
Even a couple of thousand is worth the expense for a major part if you weigh the alternatives up.......but you must want to keep that particular car.....Joe
As far as I personally am concerned the gearbox service is a "no brainer".......provided you have a low mileage (no more than 40K) car.
In that event common sense(and advice) says you have a good chance of significantly extending the life of your gearbox.
I had mine serviced at 30K(on JEC advice) and will continue to do so at that interval.
Its a more difficult decision with a higher mileage car, because it seems to be true that without servicing the AVERAGE lifespan of the ZF box is about 80K.......after that they are on "borrowed time".
If the oil can be scourced at a reasonable price (about £6/litre) it seems to me that an oil and filter change is worth doing.....these gearboxes are a fiendishly complex mechanical device and surely clean,fresh oil in it is better than filthy sludge....which even the modern long life synthetic fluid eventually becomes.The oil and filter change is not an expensive exercise provided it is not done at Main Dealer prices.
I simply do not accept the "don't stir up trouble" argument,(no-one would apply this argument to the engine would they?) and published experience of these cars does demonstrate clearly (to me anyway) that "filled for life" means a life until the oil becomes exhausted and stops working......at around 70-80k
In the absence of clear direction from Jaguar on this issue I will follow JEC advice............bearing in mind that there ,of course, are no guarantees.
In that event common sense(and advice) says you have a good chance of significantly extending the life of your gearbox.
I had mine serviced at 30K(on JEC advice) and will continue to do so at that interval.
Its a more difficult decision with a higher mileage car, because it seems to be true that without servicing the AVERAGE lifespan of the ZF box is about 80K.......after that they are on "borrowed time".
If the oil can be scourced at a reasonable price (about £6/litre) it seems to me that an oil and filter change is worth doing.....these gearboxes are a fiendishly complex mechanical device and surely clean,fresh oil in it is better than filthy sludge....which even the modern long life synthetic fluid eventually becomes.The oil and filter change is not an expensive exercise provided it is not done at Main Dealer prices.
I simply do not accept the "don't stir up trouble" argument,(no-one would apply this argument to the engine would they?) and published experience of these cars does demonstrate clearly (to me anyway) that "filled for life" means a life until the oil becomes exhausted and stops working......at around 70-80k
In the absence of clear direction from Jaguar on this issue I will follow JEC advice............bearing in mind that there ,of course, are no guarantees.
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Brakebuster
- Posts:3145
- Joined:Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location:Gloucester UK
i think it all comes down to what ' for life ' means......
as most cars are built to last 10 years ( industry standard lifespan ), after that they are not financially viable , in the trade that is, and thats the defining criteria.....
as most of us pick up these cars a few years old and are second or third custodians we look at extending the life of the car to meet our needs,
this will mean non-dealership maintenance, and home maintenance , some jobs do have to go to the main dealers in some circumstances, or for those that dont understand that its simply still a ' car ' at the end of the day...
personally, i would change the oil in anything that is eight years old or more, or has done the 80k+ miles,
as said above, it cant do any harm what so ever
those that have said that the gearbox failed after new oil was put in , i dont doubt them, but it may have failed even sooner if it hadnt been done.....think about it....
BB
as most cars are built to last 10 years ( industry standard lifespan ), after that they are not financially viable , in the trade that is, and thats the defining criteria.....
as most of us pick up these cars a few years old and are second or third custodians we look at extending the life of the car to meet our needs,
this will mean non-dealership maintenance, and home maintenance , some jobs do have to go to the main dealers in some circumstances, or for those that dont understand that its simply still a ' car ' at the end of the day...
personally, i would change the oil in anything that is eight years old or more, or has done the 80k+ miles,
as said above, it cant do any harm what so ever
those that have said that the gearbox failed after new oil was put in , i dont doubt them, but it may have failed even sooner if it hadnt been done.....think about it....
BB
Logic
Lets not be snobish here......i like the Daimler v Jag banter as a joke they are the same car almost anyway, but when we come to owning one not many of us can afford to buy and change these cars at a whim.
So like myself i bought this car to last me as long as im driving, it has all the whistles and bells i will need, apart from the odd new bits and bats that come out.
So the maintainance is paramount to people like us, main dealers are for the more wealthy guys, forums for the cheaper monetary options are in forums like this one. Thats not to say we dont want top class work done when we need to repair or service the cars.
The long term sensible, maintainance is a must for us all, if i buy a used car i ignore all the "service" information that is with the car whether its right or wrong. I want to know what work has been or has not been done
on the car, the only way is to redo it. So the oil in the gearbox issue has to be change the oil to be sure of the quality in there. I cant rest if i think there is a problem with the marque, like the recent inclusion of tensioners, thermostat and water pump with only just over 30,000 on the clock. It does seem that the posters in here do think the same, all power to your elbows lads especially if you can do it yourself........Joe
So like myself i bought this car to last me as long as im driving, it has all the whistles and bells i will need, apart from the odd new bits and bats that come out.
So the maintainance is paramount to people like us, main dealers are for the more wealthy guys, forums for the cheaper monetary options are in forums like this one. Thats not to say we dont want top class work done when we need to repair or service the cars.
The long term sensible, maintainance is a must for us all, if i buy a used car i ignore all the "service" information that is with the car whether its right or wrong. I want to know what work has been or has not been done
on the car, the only way is to redo it. So the oil in the gearbox issue has to be change the oil to be sure of the quality in there. I cant rest if i think there is a problem with the marque, like the recent inclusion of tensioners, thermostat and water pump with only just over 30,000 on the clock. It does seem that the posters in here do think the same, all power to your elbows lads especially if you can do it yourself........Joe
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Brakebuster
- Posts:3145
- Joined:Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location:Gloucester UK
it makes economic sense to maintain your car to the best possible standard, this doesnt necessarily mean the most expensive place to do it,
not everyone is able, or capable to maintain their own car, so this means its left up to mates.....local garage....Jaguar dealership, each getting more expensive as you go on...
Daimlers are no different to a Jaguar ( not these days ) and under the skin they are exactly the same , and should be no different to maintain.
again ' FOR LIFE ' is to the initial purchaser from new, and up to ten years old or so , after that, they ( Jaguar dealerships or ANY other brand of car) do no want to know beyond selling you another car, and taking small amounts of money for trivial work on the car.
BB
not everyone is able, or capable to maintain their own car, so this means its left up to mates.....local garage....Jaguar dealership, each getting more expensive as you go on...
Daimlers are no different to a Jaguar ( not these days ) and under the skin they are exactly the same , and should be no different to maintain.
again ' FOR LIFE ' is to the initial purchaser from new, and up to ten years old or so , after that, they ( Jaguar dealerships or ANY other brand of car) do no want to know beyond selling you another car, and taking small amounts of money for trivial work on the car.
BB
My newly acquired Sovereign is booked in for a gearbox oil change at Surrey Jag Centre this week.
I've always been a bit paranoid about clean engine oil and gearbox oil in cars. I change the engine oil in my old 3.9 Range Rover and also in my AJ16 XJS about every 4,000 miles. Is it really necessary? I don't know, but as the "blood" of the car and something that is relatively very cheap to change, to me, it's an obvious thing to consider. I'd had my Sovereign 24 hours last week before I changed the engine oil and filter.
When it comes to auto-gearbox oil, most manufacturers of cars built in the 90s had change intervals of 40k-48k.
So did Jaguar discover some magic formula in 1996? Not really. The ZF5HP24 box was designed to be run with the special Esso lubricant giving a longer expected life before change. Jaguar were also looking to lower the "whole-of-life costs" that are quoted by some publications for running cars, particularly for 60,000 miles. A "Sealed-for-life" gearbox helps to lower that cost, naturally. And they will always care more about cars "in-warranty" than people like me with an 11-year old car. If my gearbox fails tomorrow on 103,000 and I try and claim from Jaguar that they said it was sealed for life, what do you think their answer will be???
2 interesting points: ZF in the UK state:
The design specification of the 5HP24 requires the use of Esso LT 71141 and is filled for life. There is no alternative or equivalent oil, Esso is the only supplier of LT 71141. Under normal operation, the oil is changed after 10 years or 100, 000 mls.
So, ZF say "life" is 10 years or 100,000 miles.
And the second point is that Mercedes seem to recommend fluid changes at 60,000 miles for their models which use the same gearbox as the XJR. Hmmm?
So, I reckon that my fluid change on a car that is 11 years old with 103,000 miles is well overdue.
If I'm honest, I don't really expect to feel any real difference in the way the car drives after it's done - it's really smooth at the moment - but I'll sleep slightly easier.
I'll report back when it's done.
Paul
I've always been a bit paranoid about clean engine oil and gearbox oil in cars. I change the engine oil in my old 3.9 Range Rover and also in my AJ16 XJS about every 4,000 miles. Is it really necessary? I don't know, but as the "blood" of the car and something that is relatively very cheap to change, to me, it's an obvious thing to consider. I'd had my Sovereign 24 hours last week before I changed the engine oil and filter.
When it comes to auto-gearbox oil, most manufacturers of cars built in the 90s had change intervals of 40k-48k.
So did Jaguar discover some magic formula in 1996? Not really. The ZF5HP24 box was designed to be run with the special Esso lubricant giving a longer expected life before change. Jaguar were also looking to lower the "whole-of-life costs" that are quoted by some publications for running cars, particularly for 60,000 miles. A "Sealed-for-life" gearbox helps to lower that cost, naturally. And they will always care more about cars "in-warranty" than people like me with an 11-year old car. If my gearbox fails tomorrow on 103,000 and I try and claim from Jaguar that they said it was sealed for life, what do you think their answer will be???
2 interesting points: ZF in the UK state:
The design specification of the 5HP24 requires the use of Esso LT 71141 and is filled for life. There is no alternative or equivalent oil, Esso is the only supplier of LT 71141. Under normal operation, the oil is changed after 10 years or 100, 000 mls.
So, ZF say "life" is 10 years or 100,000 miles.
And the second point is that Mercedes seem to recommend fluid changes at 60,000 miles for their models which use the same gearbox as the XJR. Hmmm?
So, I reckon that my fluid change on a car that is 11 years old with 103,000 miles is well overdue.
If I'm honest, I don't really expect to feel any real difference in the way the car drives after it's done - it's really smooth at the moment - but I'll sleep slightly easier.
I'll report back when it's done.
Paul
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