2002 XJ8 3.2 SE - Apologies for the war and piece length of blog
Had a scare this PM when car cut out on me when approaching traffic lights. Unable to start up straight away,so on with the Hazards and sit there on the busy A40 part blocking the entrance to Cheltenham. People behind me were not happy judging by the horns and looks. No warning lights or abnormal gauges just a chattering/quiet knocking noise before she cut out. Managed to start up again and move off but slow traffic and she would cut out as soon as i stopped for lights, accompanied by the chattering noises. Got going again and moved off into a quiet side road and called the RAC. Meanwhile lifted the bonnet, (Thinking i should have done those tensioners) engine smelt very hot and fans were running(they never come on normally)Had nothing with me so just waited for the RAC who came very quickly. Mechanic first lifted the dipstick,plenty of oil but nearly burnt his fingers when he touched the oil. He then squeezed the top hose,no water or pressure there.He then carefully unscrewed the coolant cap. Absolutely no coolant left. After a while he poured in some coolant well a lot of coolant actually in fact he had to go and get some more from a garage. While he was away i noticed water dripping onto the floor from the front of the car. RAC noticed it too and established it was coming from the lower part of radiator/oilcooler. Started car and you would think nothing had happened,she sounded very sweet and ran smoothly. RAC guy said he thought i could get home ok and he would follow me to make sure all ok. we stopped halfway to check all was well, which it was and no noticeable loss of coolant. I got home ok. Car ran perfectly,i think i was very lucky considering. I now have to replace the radiator.
It looks a straightforward job but do you more experienced guys see any problems ie with the oil cooler etc? Also would a used unit be feasable? Or new? If used is ok, who would be a good supplier?
Why did the low coolant level not come on or the temp guage show hot? This is worrying me.
Any help or comments appreciated.
Regards Rod
Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Sorry to hear about your problem but when my old 3.2 spat the top hose off the stub (poor clip) the low coolant light definitely came on but I didn't drive very far, so the temp gauge didn't move up. I refitted the hose and topped it up and all was well. So in your case I would suspect that the low coolant sensor is suspect and that would be my first 'must' to sort after the rad. Not sure of the architecture of the electronics in this area but the temp gauge is not a proper one that we used to have but gets its info from the ECU so the two might be related.
Ian
Ian
1989 XJ-S V12 Convertible
Previous:
2000 Daimler Super V8 Anthracite with Ivory leather
1984 4.2 Series 3
1984 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1988 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1985 XJ-SC 3.6 Cabriolet built from new shell and donor write off - owned 24 years
Previous:
2000 Daimler Super V8 Anthracite with Ivory leather
1984 4.2 Series 3
1984 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1988 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1985 XJ-SC 3.6 Cabriolet built from new shell and donor write off - owned 24 years
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Bad luck with the leaking rad. Agreed, top priority is to find out why the coolant level sensor is not working. My old 4 litre definitely had the low coolant warning when it blew a head gasket at around 100K - just as I was about to get on a ferry to go on holiday (so I just kept topping up every time the 'low coolant' message/light came for a week until we could get home).
Some years later it also spat the top hose off while warming up as I cleared the snow away from the drive. By the time I went to drive off, the gauge was off the top end and the warning light above it was lit, so these gauges do work but maybe too little too late, as they normally tend to be 'nailed' to the middle position. New top hose and TWO jubilee clips after that!
Some years later it also spat the top hose off while warming up as I cleared the snow away from the drive. By the time I went to drive off, the gauge was off the top end and the warning light above it was lit, so these gauges do work but maybe too little too late, as they normally tend to be 'nailed' to the middle position. New top hose and TWO jubilee clips after that!
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
My old 4 litre S-type which essentially has the same core engine set up, threw a wobbly on one occasion. I had a similar issue last year with my 4.2 X350R.
I appreciate your radiator my have given up and can be regarded as an "effect" with perhaps the "cause" being elsewhere in the coolant system.
As Orkney so rightly says, it is worth replacing the coolant sensor as part of the repair. This part can break down (I`ve seen it twice now). Replace ONLY with a genuine Jaguar OE part which will have known correct electrical/electronic values. I once fitted an aftermarket part and it was a complete disaster.
Waterpumps are a known issue on this model with early cars being fitted with a plastic bladed impeller which is prone to breakage and also slippage. Fitting the later 4.2 pump is a known fix and again a genuine part is desirable but I have fitted after market units with success. The 4.2 pump has a metal impeller amd a beefed up front bearing and improved seal.
As you have had a coolant issue and the car has probably covered a fair few miles, I would strongly suggest replacing the thermostat as a matter of course. They do not last for ever. Assuming your car has the plastic thermostat tower atop the engine, that may need to be replaced when the thermostat is replaced. Sadly the plastic degrades and metal inserts for the stat cover bolts spin and slip in the tower housing when the bolts are removed. It can make dismantling difficult if not impossible. There are replacement ali towers on the market for similar prices to the OE plastic original parts. Prices for both units are similar so the metal version is the part to go for.
Fitting of the tower is a technique in itself. The tower is bolted atop its mount on the front of the engine. The base has four bolts to secure it to the engine. The front two are accessible but the rear two are obscured bt the plastic inlet manifold and getting a socket or spanner on it is impossible unless either the inlet manifold is lifted OR you take an 8mm spanner and heat up the ring end with a blow torch until orange with heat. Quickly transfer the spanner to a vice and about a quarter of an inch in from the spanner ring end, bend the spanner to about 85 degrees. Let it cool naturally, then use to tackle the two rear partially cover bolts. That is the easy way to adress that problem and avoids lifting the manifold and disturbing the seals.This link illustrates the procedure. http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=4685
The tower, stat, waterpump and sensor are all easily accessed and worked on at the same time and are conveniently placed right on top of the front of the engine. If not recently replaced or showing signs of cracking, now is the time to replace the drive belt which has an automatic sprung loaded tensioner to make tensioning and maintenance simple and quick. When the belt is off the car, spin all pulleys to ensure their bearings are smooth running and are noise free.
Like all components in a car, they have a limited lifespan and will need eventual replacement. That is the case of parts within the cooling system which needs to be kept in tip-top condition. It is worth doing these replacements to ensure a further reliable car. It is annoying to have to replace the radiator but that just has to happen if it has let go. Failure of these radiators is pretty rare, so it is worth investigating and assessing or replaceing other critical parts in the system.
Come back to us all again if you need further help.
Mike K
I appreciate your radiator my have given up and can be regarded as an "effect" with perhaps the "cause" being elsewhere in the coolant system.
As Orkney so rightly says, it is worth replacing the coolant sensor as part of the repair. This part can break down (I`ve seen it twice now). Replace ONLY with a genuine Jaguar OE part which will have known correct electrical/electronic values. I once fitted an aftermarket part and it was a complete disaster.
Waterpumps are a known issue on this model with early cars being fitted with a plastic bladed impeller which is prone to breakage and also slippage. Fitting the later 4.2 pump is a known fix and again a genuine part is desirable but I have fitted after market units with success. The 4.2 pump has a metal impeller amd a beefed up front bearing and improved seal.
As you have had a coolant issue and the car has probably covered a fair few miles, I would strongly suggest replacing the thermostat as a matter of course. They do not last for ever. Assuming your car has the plastic thermostat tower atop the engine, that may need to be replaced when the thermostat is replaced. Sadly the plastic degrades and metal inserts for the stat cover bolts spin and slip in the tower housing when the bolts are removed. It can make dismantling difficult if not impossible. There are replacement ali towers on the market for similar prices to the OE plastic original parts. Prices for both units are similar so the metal version is the part to go for.
Fitting of the tower is a technique in itself. The tower is bolted atop its mount on the front of the engine. The base has four bolts to secure it to the engine. The front two are accessible but the rear two are obscured bt the plastic inlet manifold and getting a socket or spanner on it is impossible unless either the inlet manifold is lifted OR you take an 8mm spanner and heat up the ring end with a blow torch until orange with heat. Quickly transfer the spanner to a vice and about a quarter of an inch in from the spanner ring end, bend the spanner to about 85 degrees. Let it cool naturally, then use to tackle the two rear partially cover bolts. That is the easy way to adress that problem and avoids lifting the manifold and disturbing the seals.This link illustrates the procedure. http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=4685
The tower, stat, waterpump and sensor are all easily accessed and worked on at the same time and are conveniently placed right on top of the front of the engine. If not recently replaced or showing signs of cracking, now is the time to replace the drive belt which has an automatic sprung loaded tensioner to make tensioning and maintenance simple and quick. When the belt is off the car, spin all pulleys to ensure their bearings are smooth running and are noise free.
Like all components in a car, they have a limited lifespan and will need eventual replacement. That is the case of parts within the cooling system which needs to be kept in tip-top condition. It is worth doing these replacements to ensure a further reliable car. It is annoying to have to replace the radiator but that just has to happen if it has let go. Failure of these radiators is pretty rare, so it is worth investigating and assessing or replaceing other critical parts in the system.
Come back to us all again if you need further help.
Mike K
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Thank you all for your help and advice, much appreciated. I will certainly look to replace all the relevant cooling items you mentioned and the drive belt is showing signs of wear, so that too. I am surprised that the radiator has failed and couldn't find any info on the forum regarding replacement but it definitely is leaking so has to be done. Will start stripping car today.
Thanks again.
Rod
Thanks again.
Rod
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
As always, some really great pearls of wisdom from Mike K and as indicated, all of these parts are just under the general maintenance/replacement towards a reliable car heading. If you are doing these jobs yourself not terribly expensive either.
I enjoyed Mikes 350 throttle body mount story and will probably pull my 308 charger off and do some preventive maintenance/modification while I'm in there. Just replaced the elbow seal kit and there it is in the mag this month from someone else but on an XKR,
Ian
I enjoyed Mikes 350 throttle body mount story and will probably pull my 308 charger off and do some preventive maintenance/modification while I'm in there. Just replaced the elbow seal kit and there it is in the mag this month from someone else but on an XKR,
Ian
1989 XJ-S V12 Convertible
Previous:
2000 Daimler Super V8 Anthracite with Ivory leather
1984 4.2 Series 3
1984 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1988 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1985 XJ-SC 3.6 Cabriolet built from new shell and donor write off - owned 24 years
Previous:
2000 Daimler Super V8 Anthracite with Ivory leather
1984 4.2 Series 3
1984 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1988 V12 Series 3 Sovereign
1985 XJ-SC 3.6 Cabriolet built from new shell and donor write off - owned 24 years
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Have got the radiator out and no obvious holes to be seen, I suspect damage is under the oil cooler. As is always the case i found another problem when removing the lower gearbox oil cooling pipe(outlet pipe) The connection nut is almost completely stripped of thread and the radiator threaded insert is damaged too. God knows how that happened, i can only think it must have been dismantled before and maybe put back crossthreaded? Anyway i have to replace the outlet coolant pipe somehow. I'm concerned now if this can be done DIY due to the nature of these sealed for life boxes. Am i going to get oil loss when i undo the gearbox connection end? I only had the oil and filter changed on the box in the last year at a transmission specialist. I have sent an email off to David Marks for his advice.
I didn't see this coming and i thought it was going too well.
I can see me needing a car transporter before long. Oh well off to fire up the wife's Citroen.
I didn't see this coming and i thought it was going too well.
I can see me needing a car transporter before long. Oh well off to fire up the wife's Citroen.
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
A common misnomer. These gearboxes at the time were marketed as"filled for life" not "sealed for life". That caused many owners to ignore oil changes with the inevitable result. The thinking nowadays is rather more engineering orientated with that mistake now fully understood even by Jaguar and their Main Dealers.The boxes are refillable via the breather on the top of the gearbox. Its a bit of a fiddle in the dark but it is possible when for instance an oil change or full rebuild has just been carried out.
If cross threading has occured, you could try thread restoration yourself or trundle the car off to a knowledgeable and accredited gearbox repair company who no doubt will have seen the issue previously and have a range of tools and equipment to get you back where you need to be.
The joys of running an older car. One job always leads to another.
Mike K
If cross threading has occured, you could try thread restoration yourself or trundle the car off to a knowledgeable and accredited gearbox repair company who no doubt will have seen the issue previously and have a range of tools and equipment to get you back where you need to be.
The joys of running an older car. One job always leads to another.
Mike K
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Hi Mike, The problem is that the connection nut on the gearbox cooler pipe itself is stripped and no chance of restoration to that. Its got to be a new complete pipe i'm afraid. I can get the pipe no problem but its at the gearbox end when i undo the connection( if i can get to it) that i'm concerned about and losing all that expensive oil. I'm told car has to be hooked up to diagnostics to check correct levels are present.The radiator will be replaced anyway so threads will be ok on that.
Rod
Rod
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Understood.
Assuming you saved what you can from the rad cooler, pipes and the gear box itself and could pump the fluid bacl up into the gearbox at the end of the job, theoretically you probably wouldn`t be far off getting the volume sufficient to get yourself to a local gearbox company for a check on the correct level. Fine in theory but perhaps not in practice. BUT there are some things to consider .......
You are correct about temperature and expansion of oil being important. Diagnosis of the temperature and oil level is normally checked after an oil change making sure the oil is not heated above the set temperature. When I`ve seen oil changes done, the rear wheels were jacked off the ramp and the selector moved between D, N and R to ensure the new oil is fully circulated. The temperature was monitored at the same time. My own car then underwent a road run during which the gearbox was teased to the correct operating mode which aligned it to a normal operating routine. I suspect your car would need a similar routine after your work has been completed. Doing what I suggest as a DIY jobs might not fully enable safe operation so some professional advice should be taken before entertaining such an idea or indeed driving the car in such an after work initial state.
I would suggest a ride on a flat bed truck would be the best and most satisfactory solution once you have everything back together again. If towed with a beaver back truck, then the car should be moved back end first with the rear wheels off the ground.These cars should NEVER be road towed with rear wheels revolving on the ground. The oil pump in the gearbox is engine driven to provide oil pressure. Towing rear wheels on the ground without the engine running will wreck the gearbox in moments.
Best advice from a professional operator at this stage is probably your best option.
Mike
Assuming you saved what you can from the rad cooler, pipes and the gear box itself and could pump the fluid bacl up into the gearbox at the end of the job, theoretically you probably wouldn`t be far off getting the volume sufficient to get yourself to a local gearbox company for a check on the correct level. Fine in theory but perhaps not in practice. BUT there are some things to consider .......
You are correct about temperature and expansion of oil being important. Diagnosis of the temperature and oil level is normally checked after an oil change making sure the oil is not heated above the set temperature. When I`ve seen oil changes done, the rear wheels were jacked off the ramp and the selector moved between D, N and R to ensure the new oil is fully circulated. The temperature was monitored at the same time. My own car then underwent a road run during which the gearbox was teased to the correct operating mode which aligned it to a normal operating routine. I suspect your car would need a similar routine after your work has been completed. Doing what I suggest as a DIY jobs might not fully enable safe operation so some professional advice should be taken before entertaining such an idea or indeed driving the car in such an after work initial state.
I would suggest a ride on a flat bed truck would be the best and most satisfactory solution once you have everything back together again. If towed with a beaver back truck, then the car should be moved back end first with the rear wheels off the ground.These cars should NEVER be road towed with rear wheels revolving on the ground. The oil pump in the gearbox is engine driven to provide oil pressure. Towing rear wheels on the ground without the engine running will wreck the gearbox in moments.
Best advice from a professional operator at this stage is probably your best option.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Rod,
Did you imply that the tensioners haven't been changed? If so, your engine is running on borrowed time. Definitely get them done whilst the rad is out. Also change the gearbox fluid and filter whilst the rad is being changed, even if it was changed only recently. It takes a few changes to really flush all the old fluid out.
Good luck
Paul
Did you imply that the tensioners haven't been changed? If so, your engine is running on borrowed time. Definitely get them done whilst the rad is out. Also change the gearbox fluid and filter whilst the rad is being changed, even if it was changed only recently. It takes a few changes to really flush all the old fluid out.
Good luck
Paul
1995 XJS 4.0 Convertible
1980 XJ-S Pre-HE
Jaguar 4.2 Supercharged engine (but not with a Jaguar body..)
1980 XJ-S Pre-HE
Jaguar 4.2 Supercharged engine (but not with a Jaguar body..)
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Sound advice as usual. Looks like a trip on the back of a recovery vehicle to Bristol Transmissions where the oil change was carried out. Unless David Marks can come up with anything else when i hear back from him. I suspect he will repeat what you guys have already said. For now jag is on hold until the parts arrive and Boat safety examiner coming tomorrow to test my other bottomless money swallower,lol.
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Well i have replaced thermostat, drivebelt, coolant sensor and radiator. I also did an oil and filter change plus some work underneath to keep the tinworm at bay.
Filled the system with coolant from tower cap,squeezing the hoses as i went along until filled to top. It took about 7 litres of coolant (should be 10 litres to fill). Put the caps on and started car up. All seemed well, no leaks. Topped up the oil level and restarted car and let idle to warm up and thermostat to open thinking i could top up coolant. After a while car appears to be running/smelling too hot at front near thermostat housing with a hint of steam? Temp gauge normal but engine definitely smelt hot and also coolant level had not gone down any. It seems like thermostat has not opened. It was a quality item from Northeast jag spares,as was coolant sensor.
I would really appreciate some suggestions please. Could i have an air lock? Should it take more coolant. I'll probably take the thermostat back out tomorrow and test it.
Thanks in anticipation
Rod
Filled the system with coolant from tower cap,squeezing the hoses as i went along until filled to top. It took about 7 litres of coolant (should be 10 litres to fill). Put the caps on and started car up. All seemed well, no leaks. Topped up the oil level and restarted car and let idle to warm up and thermostat to open thinking i could top up coolant. After a while car appears to be running/smelling too hot at front near thermostat housing with a hint of steam? Temp gauge normal but engine definitely smelt hot and also coolant level had not gone down any. It seems like thermostat has not opened. It was a quality item from Northeast jag spares,as was coolant sensor.
I would really appreciate some suggestions please. Could i have an air lock? Should it take more coolant. I'll probably take the thermostat back out tomorrow and test it.
Thanks in anticipation
Rod
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
I`ve had the same on my V8 S-type after a cooling system overhaul. One really does need to do a good burping job to get all the air out.
Has the water pump been changed? The V8 in its original form had a plastic water pump impeller fitted which is notorious for disintegration. The impeller literally drops to bits and large chunks of it can find their way around the cooling system. The secret is to replace the pump with an updated 4.2 unit fitted with a metal impeller. Neville Anderson at North East Jaguar Spares has them in stock and prices are quite reasonable. Ebay is another source.
See this link and others on the S-type BB for cooling system details.http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=5465
Mike
Has the water pump been changed? The V8 in its original form had a plastic water pump impeller fitted which is notorious for disintegration. The impeller literally drops to bits and large chunks of it can find their way around the cooling system. The secret is to replace the pump with an updated 4.2 unit fitted with a metal impeller. Neville Anderson at North East Jaguar Spares has them in stock and prices are quite reasonable. Ebay is another source.
See this link and others on the S-type BB for cooling system details.http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=5465
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Overheated But No warning lights and temp gauge normal?
Thanks Mike. A mind of information as always. No i haven't done the water pump so that will be my next step. I've been back out on the car this am and run it up to temp. Pretty sure the thermostat is opening as hose from thermostat housing is now getting hot. No coolant loss and temp guage stays at normal/middle position, but fans do come on where they never did before the original problem, i am suspicious something is not right. I am concerned about head gaskets but car drives well. Would i experience rough running if head gaskets are gone? Also the coolant capacity(or lack of being able to get more than 7 litres in) is niggling away at me.
One good thing is while i was in there i checked the tensioners and they are the aluminium bodied type.
Thanks again
Rod
One good thing is while i was in there i checked the tensioners and they are the aluminium bodied type.
Thanks again
Rod
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