Warranty Company refusing to pay - Long Post - sorry

[charlock]

My 170k mile '98 XKR had it's gearbox fail last week.

It failed just under a year and about 6000 miles after I bought it from an independent Jag specialist and was still under warranty. The warranty insurers refuse to pay anything on the basis this is a wear and tear failure.

Before you ask! - one of the first things I did was to get the fluid and filter changed. At that stage, the sump, filter and fluid looked in pretty good condition. The cooler had been replaced about 20k miles before as part of an engine rebuild so some of the fluid was replaced at that point too. As far as I can tell, no other gearbox servicing had been carried out.

Having spoken to the previous owner it is clear this car has spent most of it's life being carefully pampered and burbling along unstressed in top gear on the motorway.

The gearbox failed with no prior warning. Apparently the Torrington bearing (some sort of needle or roller bearing) holding the gear set has shattered.

Is this a typical failure mode for this gearbox at a typical mileage? Would prior wear in this bearing be noticeable (it was test driven as part of it's annual service only a week before so anything strange should have been picked up)?

Has anyone managed to make a successful warranty claim for a gearbox at this sort of mileage?

[mike020150]

Sadly, I have to say that these boxes do fail and most typically at lower mileages than 170k. It does however beg the question as to what was covered by the warranty if it didn't cover a catastrophic failure (I presume the internals fell to pieces rather than were stripped because of a whining noise or similar). Unlike older auto gearboxes, modern ones tend to give little or no advance warning of their impending failure. All other things being equal, I would be inclined to press your warranty claim with the insurance company. A noisy gearbox or one which changed gear less than smoothly would fit a wear and tear definition but a collapsed box would be a failed unit. So, unless the claim is out of time, cost or mileage limits it's difficult to understand on what grounds the claim could be rejected. Mike.

[charlock]

Thanks Mike,

No whining or noises of any sort before failure and giving beautifully smooth changes (could only tell from changed engine note when it changed gear). I'm definitely within the parameters for a claim - no mileage limit and well within the costs limit for a claim on this policy. I haven't seen the box but I imagine it will be pretty wrecked internally from the noises it made immediately after failure.

Warranty company indicated they weren't going to pay because of wear and tear given the mileage even before they had any details of the mode of failure. They were of course happy to take a premium only 6000 miles ago without making any conditions. It does indeed beg the question just what is covered and suggests a somewhat cynical attitude to payouts.

I will keep pushing.

Andy

[davidh]

Maybe try the Small Claims Court, maybe issue proceedings and be damned?

David

[charlock]

David,

That's certainly on my list

I'll try the internal complaints route first. So far everything has been done via the Dealer.

Another option is the Financial Ombudsman. Any thoughts/experience on that?

Andy

[Nik]

Hi Andy ,
Don't suppose your car was purchased from in independant in West Sussex by any chance , most warranties don't cover wear but should cover breakage , what was the name of the warranty/insurance company Are they anything to do with "Autoprotect" by any chance , if you would rather not name and shame on the forum feel free to PM me , I'll see what I can do to help ,

Best Wishes ,

Nik

[charlock]

Nik,

Good to hear a friendly "voice".

It is indeed Autoprotect and is their Gold policy issued via dealers. Why do you ask?

I've spent plenty on the car on genuine wear items to bring it into tip-top condition (the usual - suspension bushes, worn trim, bulbs etc.) without even thinking about a warranty claim. But this situation seems clearly to be a warrantable failure. Autoprotect are effectively applying a mileage-related exclusion - but which they don't have the honesty to put in their documentation.

It would seem to me that since many of our cars are getting on in mileage, we should all think very carefully before spending on warranties. If this experience is anything to go by, the warranty will be worthless based solely on mileage and regardless of the policy wording. It would certainly seem wise to stay well away from Autoprotect.

I'd prefer to leave the dealer out of the picture for now since so far they've been pretty straight with me and I've yet to push them hard on whether they'll pay if the warranty doesn't. They are local to me and not in West Sussex.

I've been put onto a chap called Ron Lee who is apparently Mercedes' gearbox guru - he trains the Mercedes techs how to repair the boxes. I'll be asking him to confirm typical failure modes and mileages. My colleague (who put me on to Ron) commented that the box in his 500SL which I believe is the same box as in the R, is known to do well over 500K miles before failure in Mercedes applications. Of course, the service intervals and torque loadings may be different but that would still seem to be a very useful fact if I can verify it.

I note the box is also used on the SLR McLaren with it's 5.4 litre supercharged V8 and 575lb/ft of torque so it's not exactly a weak gearbox

Any help would be very welcome.

Andy

[Nik]

Hi Andy ,
I purchased a car from a very well known XK8 specialist together with a Autoprotect "Gold" warranty , I'd had the car 4 days and the water pump fell to pieces , the car wasn't covered by the dealers six month warranty or Autoprotects warranty , despite the fact that the dealer had replaced the pump 9 months earlier at a cost of £110 for "pattern" pump , this price is for a dodgy replica part and does not include fitting , genuine Jaguar pumps are less than £60 , I'd pursue this gearbox failure with Autoprotect as reading their terms and condtions they don't cover "wear and tear" but cover breakages to transmissions , to start with you need a letter from either a Jaguar main agent or a transmission specialist stating that part or parts of the gearbox internals have "broken" ,

Hope this helps ,

Nik

[painter]

Hi Andy,
it is less common to hear of gearboxes 'blowing' in this day and age, even the cheap and nasty varieties seem to cope with 150k + if maintained. I think the key here is whether or not Jaguar would express an opinion as to whether or not they would anticipate problems with these boxes at this mileage due to wear and tear, povided the car has been properly serviced. If the answer is no, and bearing (pun) in mind the catastrophic failure you have experienced, it would be difficult to argue that wear and tear is the cause. This is of course on the assumption that the warranty company maintain any semblence of integrity, which remains to be seen. Good luck.

[Barrie05]

Hi Andy

sorry to hear your troubles, you don't mention the company by name I'm only asking as I'm looking to obtain a warranty with "Warranty direct "on my XK8

Best of luck with your claim

regards
Barrie

[mike020150]

Hi Andy,
I'd take the comments about the durability of the same box when fitted to Mercs of the same era with a pinch of salt. If you visit any auto box reconditioner with a reasonable throughput, you will find they fail as regularly in Mercs as Jaguars. The key issue has to be the warranty. If the warranty company took the premium and you have complied with the company's written rules and exclusions you should have a cast iron case to pursue withem and if that fails, through the courts. Mike.

[Nik]

Hi Guys ,
I agree wholeheartedly with Mike , I have studied their small print carefully and don't think they will have a leg to stand on if it went to court , the box "broke" , didn't whine for days or weeks , was not leaking oil and preventative maintainance was carried out , the bearing failed and wrecked the gearbox , simple as that ,

Hopefully this helps ,

Nik

[charlock]

Thanks for all your comments.

Still pursuing the issue. Autoprotect are playing "hardball" as one might expect.

"integrity" doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary.

The dealer is not being as helpful as I would like since they're firmly stepping away from the issue which is surprising given some fairly stringent consumer legislation putting them on the hook too.

I've made enquiries at several main dealers about the life of these boxes, and the people I spoke to appeared to be nervous about discussing the sealed for life issue and have all politely clammed up. I would of thought most of the cars with these gearboxes would have been out of main dealer hands by now so they'd have no cause to worry, but maybe there is an issue there.

I'll keep you posted. In the meantime I'm going to set up a little poll on here and the XJ forum to try to get a feel for what mileage these gearboxes really are doing in our cars. I'd be grateful if you could take the time to post.

Thanks, Andy

[Barrie05]

Andy
I guess I must have to slow my reading down just gone back through and of course you mention Auto Protect .

This is the company that JEC deal with, it may be worth giving Graham Searle a ring at bristol his number is in the mag he deals with the JEC members policies.

If your case is typical of their attitude I'm not convinced that these warranties are that benificial.

Regards
Barrie

[charlock]

Barrie,

That's an interesting thought. Hadn't spotted that.

I'll get in touch with Graham.

I'm trying to get some official information from Mercedes and Jaguar at the moment.

Got the car back last Thursday and now we've nearly lost the snow, I've had a chance to try it out.

The repaired box is very nice but feels absolutely the same as it did before - just underlines how well it ran before. Only difference is a considerable weight saving in the wallet department

I certainly wouldn't ever bother with an AutoProtect warranty again. Amazingly I'm getting the hard sell to renew at the moment and it's being very loudly sold as "unlimited mileage"

Andy