Fuel Saver - Hydrogen hybrid

[smoggy1965]

Having read the article on page 82 of July's magazine I would like to know if any other XK8 owners have fitted one of these "hydrogen cell" systems and the results.

I am a fan of alternative fuel systems as I converted my X300 to LPG and saved a fortune. But I now only do 5000 miles a year and at £2000 installed cost for an LPG conversion on my XK8 this is unviable.

I note on the website referenced in the article www.hydrogenhybrids.uk.com that an installed 2 cell systen is £499+vat and 3 cell is £599+vat. If the system achieves the quoted benefits then it may be financially viable, even on my low milage.

[KevRen]

Hi

I was looking into this system myself and was finding it difficult to justify the outlay given my low annual mileage. It was looking like taking 10 years to recoup the investment as a large number of cells is needed for full functionality.

So I started to explore the internet and, lo and behold, you can buy all the assembled bits for a 3-cell system (big enough for a 4.0l V8) from the States for around £270 including carriage. 'Sounds great', I thought. But then I started looking deeper. There is an enormous amount of doubt out there on the internet (some of it expressed, not surprisingly, with great vitriol), principally because the system would appear to defy the laws of thermodynamics. When I queried this with the US supplier I was less than convinced by the response, having some knowledge of science and so decided to wait until a scientific test had been done on the system and its results published - £270 might be better spent on buying fuel than on installing some device which does nothing to save it!

Given the enormous potential for massive sales of a device which matches the manufacturer's claims vs the relatively small outlay that would be required to carry out a proper, scientific, blind test on a vehicle fitted/not fitted with hydrogen device I am suspicious that those selling these kits still rely on Mr J from Arkansas or Ms H of Swindon saves 45% on petrol-type apocraphy.

Kev

[J44EAG]

I am convinced that hydrogen cell technology is the way things will go in the future. At present, IMHO, just how good the current generation of systems are is somewhat unquantified in my mind.

De Verde claim seemingly improved figures for a 4 litre S-type. I think I would like to try their car for a few days before committing. In theory, Hydro/oxygen enriched unburned charge air must surely increase volumetric efficiency, producing a larger gas expansion and therefore increased power and torque output at the flywheel leading to smaller throttle openings and decreased fuel usage for any given road speed. One only has to add a quantity of aviation fuel to ones fuel tank to see what extra octane and increased calorific addition can do to increase power output in an internal combustion engine. I am not so worried about the possibility of breaking the laws of thermo dynamics but am more interested as to the actual in service benefits of installing such a hybrid system. Theory can be one thing. Practice can sometimes come up with the unexpected. I admit to holding an open mind on the subject at this stage.

Only when one of us has first hand experience of a hydrogen cell equipped car and actual usage factual analysis, will we be truly able to ascertain whether such a system is worth considering as an investment. Until we have that information, we really are trying to intelligent guess what advantages could or could not be obtained by shelling out some eight hundred pounds. Most certainly, testimonials as found on the De Verde material, in my opinion should be treated with some caution. However, if completely independent assessment were available, then we could conceivably find ourselves in a better position to make a fully informed judgement and decision on these hydro installations.

That is my take on the matter. It would be good to see such a system being highly successful.

The other aspect of fitting such a unit and assuming that it does what it says on the box and can be proven by substantive evidence, could one apply to the DVLA for a reduction in the cost of excise duty given that lower emissions for a so fitted car are resultant?

May I entice Mike Horlor to add comment?

Views anyone?

Mike Kennedy

[Nik]

Hi Guys ,
If the benefits are so good , how come all the major motor manufacturers aren't already fitting them
They could buy the cells thousands at a time and pay peanuts , if there were any benefits ,even small ones, they would jump on the band wagon ,
I'm with KevRen on this one , spend the £270 on petrol not gadgets that are very unlikely to work ,

All the best ,

Nik

[mike020150]

As Mike (J44EAG) knows very well, I can be tempted into print on this subject. Having run a very large fleet, I used to be bombarded by similar claims for enormous savings at an average of one or more a week. However, over a career of more than 30 years, I was never able to substantiate the economics of such claims for a single product of the many tested. Yes, it's possible to add extra fuel and reduce the need for petrol/diesel but since that extra fuel never costs next to nothing, I have yet to experience a miracle improvement in real world economics. The best hope for improvements come from items like Andy Stodart's simple ignition advance bracket for X300s or similar items which take advantage of a manufacturer's conservative engine settings. Even those advances come with a degree of risk otherwise the manufacturer would happily have specified them. XK8s cruised gently on super unleaded are able to run more ignition advance and therefore give more mpg. In practice, in general use with stop start motoring the conditions to take advantage of super unleaded are reduced and the extra costs outweigh the savings. It's the same for all the gadgets and gizmos I've ever tested. Some have produced some savings some of the time. None has ever proved economically viable in real world conditions. Mike.

[J44EAG]

Eminently sensible appraisal from Mr H as expected.

I agree about Super unleaded. 5mpg gain on the motorway but at extra fuel cost at the pumps. However the engine runs sweeter and smoother which is good for valve seat longevity. Expensive game if using high octane fuel in town. Cost scale begins to slid backwards.

Mike K.

[KevRen]

Re j44eag's point on aviation fuel, don't forget that adding higher calorific fuel is very different in energy principles to using petrol to generate a fuel (in this case hydrogen).

Kevin