I keep getting "bitten by jaguar specialists"

[glenn1411]

For a man who has spent 25 years of his working life in the motor trade {sales} I seem to be gulible when it comes to having my own pride and joy repaired by someone i think will be competant./ and trust to do a fair job on my car.As we all know if you run your car as your hobby, and your not charman of I.C.I. Chemicals, or a football player, repairs and servicing are a considerable factor in your running expenses,none of us have bottomless pockets of money,The thing i find the hardest is getting someone to DO what you ask them,or what they SAY they will do,.!! i have now had my third and last BAD experience with yet another "Jaguar Specialist" the truth is they are NOT specialists the only specialists with Jaguar are the people with the official sign above the door,!! without boring everyone with all the details i gave up with non jaguar {specialists} 8 years ago when one charged me £1500 to do the timing chain, on my V12, he dident DO it right, and it cost another £1749 to get it right at the MAIN DEALER -lesson learned or so i thought, i recently re-joined the J.E.C. after a gap of 7 years partly me blaming them {wrongly} on an advert id seen in the mag for a local specialist WHO WASENT,{£1500 lesson} i fully appreciate J.E.C. cant guarantee the quality of work carried out by advertisers in the magazine, I live in Yorkshire and had recently seen an article on one of the regions web pages on a dealer who specialized in Jaguar although by their own admission they would repair any make,but Jags seemed to be the favorite, and i noted that the region branch had attended bonnet up nights at the garage, and they looked o.k. to me too.so i telephoned and made an appointment to have a small service ,the tracking adjusted, and a fault on the courtesy lights sorted{they stayed on dim,} when the car was locked id tried a new relay and door light switches to no avail, this dealer was 35 miles from me but i figured it worth the trip as they knew Jaguars,!!, it took a week to get the car in as they were very busy,!...good sign for Jags i thgought, i left the car with them, on the day id arranged, and went to a local museum to kill some time whilst i was there,I also mentioned a water leak on the passenger footwell, when i arrived if they had TIME to look for its source, I think it only fair to say im not going to name the garage as i dont believe in sticking the knife in by naming garages wrongly or rightly,? upon my return the car was sitting pointing out of the garage waiting for me the garage owner informed me the service was done,Had it been road tested,???.....NO,
they couldent sort the courtesy lights because someone else who fitted the toad alarm had put a feed in to the courtesy light relay wire, and i needed to take it to the toad alarm dealer,??? no mention of looking for the water leak??, and we cant do the tracking because the upper wishbone bushes at the front of the car have deteriorated, and one side had collapsed,it was explained to me you cant set the tracking until you replace the wishbone bushes, fair enough, the bill £220.49p i think, quite resonable i thought and off i went home,Now bear in mind the car had been on the premises over three hours, i ordered new bushes there are four, upon my return home from S.N.G. Barrett cost £48.00 it seemed logical to me that i needent take the car back 35 miles just for the bushes doing when i had a competant mechanic i use for repairs on everyday cars i buy and sell myself just on my doorstep, and i dont need a jag man just for that,thats basic stuff for good mechanics, he fitted them today for me -guess what,??? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with the bushes that came out of the car, no rust, no deterioration of the rubber ,just as good as the ones that went in out of the jag bag, once again i am now in a fit of peak for trusting yet another garage who supposidly know what they are talking about with jags,the man wasent available when i rang the Jag garage and told them-and he dident ring back either i rang again, and cancelled a big job on my other XJ-S i was going to have them do later in the month-once again NO CONFIDENCE IN SPECIALISTS,now have i paid out £220 for an oil and filter service, and new rear pads that the car needed,AND an aditional £100.00 FOR bushes it doesent need acting on their professional advice, i think i was ment to TAKE IT BACK THERE FOR THE BUSHES DOING?????...,thats the impression im left with ,.my opinion..... NOBODY checked those bushes,no one actually LOOKED at them, and no one did looked at the tracking either although on the invoice it read "check Tracking" £15.00 its a joke,!!!! the clue i missed was when i rang to make an appointment for both my cars we are very,very busy,!!!!!!!, thats also what the lady said when i rang back and cancelled the second job which incidently would have cost me in the region of £1000.00 "thats o.k. we are busy" THEY WONT BE FOR MUCH LONGER pushing work though without doing it properly,!!!!!!!! SO its back to the jaguar main dealers for me, i know they do cheaper labour rates for older cars, and at least i will haveTHE PEACE-Of-MIND TO KNOW I WONT GET BULL EXCUSES FOR THE JOB BEING DIAGNOSED WRONG -BECAUSE IT WONT BE, im too old a bunny in the motor trade ive heard all the excuses and it doesent wash, the moral of my story and this is the THIRD time ive made this mistake, CHECK the local Jaguar Main Dealer as well, as the "Specialist" how competitive can he be,?? most will try for us owners of older cars my local one is 2 miles away,..thats where my cars go from now on,..THEY ARE JAGUAR SPECIALISTS,!! isant it worth it for a few quid more?? i definately believe that now.35 miles for a job that wasent done, as id asked the tracking was the other reason it went as well as the service, no courtesylights fixed either, and no mention of the water leak,...WELL we are BUSY!!!!!!

[Gordon@1962]

Hi Glen,

Thanks for taking the time to write about your 'escapades' with a so called Jaguar Specialist.
As enthusiasts we definitely want people working on our cars who know what they are doing and are going to do it right!
I've got a few jobs that need doing on my car within the next few months and I have already decided (even before reading your post) that I'm going to give my local genuine Jaguar Dealer a try

[almcl]

I am far from convinced that Jaguar main dealers know what they are doing with cars over ten years old. And with rates in excess of £120 an hour who wants a kid younger than the car learning how it works at the owner's expense?

I have bad experiences with both main dealers and independant Jaguar specialists locally. One, well known, local sepcialist used to advertise very cheap hourly rates to JEC members. When I went to talk about a cylinder head issue on my XJ6, they said it took eight hours to get the head off (£2400+ in labour charges) and in addition would cost £1000 to refurbish. When I pointed out I could get it off in under 3 hours and had done so more than once they back tracked and admitted that they sent the head work out. I did the job myself in the end, getting a non specialist machine shop to to do the machining work for about £120.

Another alleged Jag trained local independant missed a broken rear shock on my XJS on a service, despite my telling him to look for the source of a clunk and also missed a leaking heater valve (again having been told about a coolant leak.) At this point I began to wonder if he had even changed the oil.

As a result of the depressingly low standard of both Jaguar and non Jaguar garages there is only one person I use now. He's not cheap, he's 90 miles away and his forecourt is frequently full of V8 Jaguars that the main dealers can't fix, often after several £1000s of parts. The great benefit is that I know and can trust him. He will allow me to stand under the ramp with him and discuss the options as we look at the broken or worn part, will give free advice and is quite happy if I do the work he has recommended. He will even inspect the car afterwards and confirm that the repair appears satisfactory.

Pity he seems to be in a minority...

[dhdove]

Dear All

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I agree with almcl, I have doubts if Main Dealers are interested in or have the skills to properly look after the XJS model nowadays, they will almost certainly let the apprentice loose on it to gain some experience...........

For those who can get to him I can WHOLEHEARTEDLY reccommend our own David Marks in Nottingham, he is without doubt one of the leading "specialist" Jaguar repair garages in the country.
NB HE IS very busy!

As he's a bit of a hike for me I use Swallows Jaguar in Somerset (Rooksbridge). I have been going there for three years after bad experiences with another local "specialist" and am happy to reccommend them too. Although it's a forty mile journey for me if I book in advance they always have a loan vehicle that I can take for a day or two, although it's pot luck as to what you get and obviously you need to have the relevent insurance cover.

Regards

DH Dove.

[glenn1411]

Well dare i say David Marks in nottingham was the FIRST person i called for a quote to replace the front springs and suspension,radius arms anti roll bar bushes, all four discs and pads, whatever work is required replacing brake piping, caliper seal kits,having seen him mentioned in the club magazine... i have ALL the parts myself, Genuine Jaguar parts too, i have bought them when i could afford to i knew the jobs still to do on my 1981 XJ-S H.E. its been in the garage wrapped up for 7 years because i just couldent afford it at the time i finished refurbishing the car in 97, at that point i was £15,000 in to it,!! so i have waited until i had the parts to finish the job, which is now, im only looking for labour quotes here, the garage i spoke of yesterday who i had asked to do a service and the items i mentioned in my post yesterday on my other XJ-S {convertible} have lost the work because they lied to me about my other car...its that simple...and what would their work be like on this bigger job thought I,??marks, garage wasent happy about not supplying the parts first off ..i am in the motor trade...i know why PROFIT,!!! they want it ALL labour and parts,!!!.. of course,..but you dont work in a fitted kitchen shop, then walk into ANOTHER one and pay full up to buy one do you???, i opened trade accounts at S.N.G. Barrett and David Manners...because im a bona fidi Motor trader,.the discounts are not big amounts but every little helps as in all things..so why should i pay full up for them...anyway,.. i digress the attitude i got from Mr Marks.......ONCE AGAIN "im very busy" a job like that take a few days......yes o.k. said i,....you are talking around £2,500....!!! , and you would be looking around september {when i start to quieten off-is what that means}now thats a labour charge,,,no parts ,..and thats MORE than three Jaguar main dealers quoted....so whos helping who??...once again.. once these specialists get a good name for themselves and appear in club magazine articles ......UP GOES THE LABOUR RATES both the garage i had a bad experience with and david marks...spoke to me like they were doing me a favour....BECAUSE ....."WE ARE VERY BUSY" that old chestnut once again...in my experience the customer is king, thats how i have always treated my own customers, BECAUSE I WANT THEM TO BE HAPPY AND COME BACK NEXT TIME,!!...and i expect the same in return this job on my 1981 car is goiing to be around a £1000.00 labour i know that....i have saved for that...at the end of the day as i have frustratingly told many of my friends i DONT really need a Jag Man, for suspension, and brake repairs this is basic stuff for a good mechanic, i am now talking to the man who does all the repairs on my everyday cars that i buy and sell, he is very competant in what he does ,so i think i will let him do the work I TRUST HIM ..... but.. It would have been nice to go to a Jaguar Specialist.....but the net result is i CANT FIND A GOOD ONE IN YORKSHIRE,!!! that i can TRUST that word again but it means a lot to me,!!and thats the truth,..even Appleyards{Main Bradford Jaguar Dealer} service manager that i discussed the work with...AT LENGTH on the telephone only yesterday, who promised me a reduced labour rate, and experienced technicians..{.i wouldent let them use a juinior on my car} have FAILED TO COME BACK TO ME AS PROMISED WITH A PRICE TODAY so.. strike them off the list too,!!,no doubt they too are" VERY BUSY"...it would appear you just CANT trust garages in the 21st centuary and a good reliable garage is worth its weight in gold....sadley i cant find one up here,..its pathetic the chaps that are saying "we are very busy" will be singing a different tune the month of December, christmas week, the first week back in the new year, easter,...i know that from my own experience in working in dealerships,..i really dont know what is wrong with my hard saved money,versus what they are prepared to do to my car,.....clearly its just not good enough ....many ,many thanks for your replies to my original post yesterday its comforting to know im not alone in my dilema. but its not much use to us chaps is it gentlemen??
kind regards everyone
Glenn.

[dhdove]

Glenn1411

Please note I am not on a retainer for David Marks Garages..........BUT
If I may I should like to address a couple of your concerns.

He probably IS booked up with work till September - after all it's only six weeks away and his reputation and quality of work mean that many people want him to "sort" their cars. (Honestly!)

I can understand that he would want to supply the parts...........you're in the trade - wouldn't you? But I take it that he would fit the parts you supply?

£2,500 labour......hmmm......from the work you describe I would imagine that he would drop the front sub-frame out of the car completely, strip it on the bench, re-build it and then put it back in - with all the potential pitfalls that that could involve. Plus other works specified, rear discs, brake lines etc. I can't remember what his hourly rates are but I would be surprised if it's less than £60.00/hour so thats a weeks work for one man (or woman ). Is that reasonable?
As in all these things the law of supply and demand applies, I guess you pays your money and takes your chances.........

NB Was he aware that the car has sat in a garage for seven years ? It may have encouraged him to add a bit of lee-way to his quote? (Only Asking!)

Anyway, good luck with your local man, I totally agree - it's not rocket science!
Remember to remind him to note where the shims came from

I think above all we must keep in mind that the XJS is now an old, quite complex, or at least, idiosynchratic vehicle. We are not taking a Ka to the local Ford dealers, and prices and services will vary and are formed accordingly.
Kind Regards

DH Dove

PS Just one other thing occurs to me...which do you hate most - the higher quote and when you go to collect the car it's a bit less or the lower quote and when you go to pay the bill you are presented with a load of "BUT we had to do this and we didn't expect that?"

[glenn1411]

IUnderstand what your,e saying about your man,and clearly you have respect for him and i appreciate that.
the point i tried to make is its expensive,wherever you go, and all i have had is a "take it or leave " attitude from all of them there are ways of talking to people,and ive been talked down to, by all of them !! thats what rags me,
i explained to them all in great detail,ALL about my car where it had been for the last 7 years, and what i had bought to be fitted i dont think anyone would remove a front subframe, to replace the shocks, springs, and front disc,s no matter,..thats irrelivent , i have always assumed that someone who was a specialist as opposed to a main dealer would have a cheaper labour rate ,after all are they not trying to attract people like us?? who cant run to £120.00 an hour at the main dealer,..and even then as other posts here testify the quality of work is questionable even at the main dealer.Again as i mentioned in my first post i took my car 35 miles to York,...paid the price they quoated...and the work was not done as i asked, this "we are busy thing" really cheeses me off we are busy trying to get as many cars through as we can and the consiquence of that is very little time is spent on my car ,but the price is the same and all i got was bull**** as to why the other jobs wernt done,Im sorry but £2,500 is taking the micky somewhat, i have to question that when main dealers were told the same story and they came back with £1500, 3 of them and those are your £99.00/£120.00 per hour men main dealer men,! being in the J.E.C. makes NO DIFFERENCE i found the price is the same take or leave it...All the club does is furnish these people with customers and i resent that. and there is definately a "pecking order" for jobs to be done ,..summer is over in september, ive been trying to find someone since april...with no luck...in future i will try to find a good reputable garage who does not specialize, it just adds pounds to the quotes,..its trading on a "name,"..and i like many others do not have an open cheque book,.im sure we can debate this forever and a day...i respect the opinions of others but i maintain the responses this post has produced have been more negative than positive when it comes to repairs on older prestige cars, which just backs up my frustration. its a sad state of affairs when you cant get a decent job...for a decent price..thats the opinion im left with after talking to these people and they DEFINATELY need a lesson in the way they talk to people all of them,!!IF YOU PROMISE TO RING SOMEONE BACK.....MAKE SURE YOU DO IT,!!!!!!!!BUSY OR NOT,..!!
kind regards
everyone
Glenn.

[dhdove]

Glenn1411

I hear what you say, over the years I have been totally pi**ed off with garages who could do this and that only to find that given the time, and equipment I could probably have done a better job myself.

You just have to find someone you trust and can get on with........I think we've all been there.
Unfortunately to use an expression "it's a steep learning curve" - and an expensive one too

Nuff Said.

DH Dove

[ptjs1]

An interesting area of debate and, I suspect, of real relevance to many, if not most, owners.

My personal view is that one can not definitively state that Main Jaguar Dealers are better than Specialists or vice versa. The nunaces of the individual XJS models, the variability of the quality of the staff in each garage and the nature of the particular problem to be resolved on the car will all have a bearing on who will give you the appropriate solution for your wallet and your own personal standards of work. I have had good and bad results from both specialists and Main Dealers. What is important ultimately is whether you trust the people working on your car and that might mean that different people are appropriate for different jobs. One of the reasons that some people have good things to say about David Marks work or that of other specialists, at times, is that some XJS problems are not clear cut. And the thing that often makes the difference is previous experience of similar problems. In my view, this is why some main Dealers are not best suited now to resolve some XJS problems. The ethos of most modern garages is one of "replace each part in a logical order with new parts until the problem has been resolved". A GOOD independent may say "Ah, I have seen this syptom before, it is most likely to be the xxx which can be resolved in the following way". A fundamentally different approach, I would suggest.

However, I would take excpetion to the view that being in the JEC makes no difference. That clearly isn't true as many of us can testify to. What makes a bigger difference to how you are treated, what discount you can negotiate etc is the attitude and approach that one uses in ones discussion with the garage, either specialist or independent. I have never failed to garner some form of discount as a JEC member. However, I'd like to think that is was partly because of how I sought to ask for the discount, as much as just because I was in the JEC.

So perhaps, we all have different demands, standards, sizes of wallets and personal approaches. Horses for Courses.

Paul

[yellow1977]

I can only agree with others and say that I recently had work done on my Pre HE XJS at Dave Marks and was very happy with the work, he also pointed out a fault that had been missed by three previous services/MOTs at the main dealer I also traveled from Oldham that is quiet a distance, and waited for a while because he was busy. I have also had work done locally at Banford Motor company near Rochdale another specialist, with good results.

[kelsham]

Hi I almost hesitate to suggest this but why not fit the parts yourself starting with the easy ones? If you get into difficullties I am sure that some of us here could give advice. I have done most of the work you mention in the past. \if you take it one step at a time it should be manageable. I am away for a few days but dont hesitate to contact me after next Sunday regards Kels.

[brod]

hi all,

i know it's a while since anyone posted on this subject but i've experienced this kind of problem across the board. i've an audi rs6 plus (please members, dont judge me too harshly for having a passion for a modern german motor as well as the jag) and have had very similar problems with audi main dealers finding and resolving issues as it's a bit of a rare car. plus not calling back when they say they will and so on. i'm not really much of a fist banger and seem to find that being polite and understanding when negotiating with people / organisations who have failed in there service to me as a customer, rather than showing my anger or frustration pays dividends in terms of building an on-going relationship. if garages are busy enough to not need every piece of work offered they will rather work on vehicles whose owners they actually like and will give that extra 10% of care and service.

that said, i am currently on the look out for an excellent bodyshop in the london area to take the bodywork and paint on the xjs from it's current fairly good condition to concourse standard. any suggestions would be greatly received

best regards guys

brod