Is the Law an ass?

[Tintin]

I have come across a statistic that over 800,000 (yes - eight hundred thousand) speeding tickets were issued in 2015. When 800,000 citizens break the law every year it is time for the law to be changed. I am not saying that there should be no speed limits but a more lenient approach needs to be taken with low level breaches and non habitual offenders - otherwise the law risks becoming a laughing stock; in fact with 800,000 offences a year it is already not being taken seriously.

The cynic may say that the lost revenue from tobacco tax needs to be recovered from elsewhere, but the poor bxxxxy motorist already pays enough to the exchequer - and most roads in this country are still in cxxp condition.

As you may have guessed - I am number 800,001.

Come the revolution..............................

Rant over.

Robbie

[Zennan101]

Robbie,

I too have fallen victim of the ticketing epidemic when I collected two automated tickets in six months and am working very hard to get my licence clean again. I won't tempt fate by saying how long I need to be super vigilent but It's not long now.
I do not condone speeding per se but I do regret the automation of speeding enforcement which has taken away the common sense approach exercised in the past by active traffic policing.
I now believe that a disproportionate amount of driver time is spent checking and rechecking speed. On many occasions I now resort to the ASL to prevent creeping over limits and rely on my Snooper to warn me of camera and high risk zones. It's hard to keep speed no higher than the limit, especially the 20mph limit! Don't get me wrong I 'press on' whenever I can but there are now so many roads and zones that are so heavily automated for speeding enforcement that it's to much of a risk to wallet and licence.
Observing speed limits does mean that I always seem to be at the head of any traffic queue so I guess the vast majority of fellow motorists are either struggling with the limits or are ignoring them

Rod

[ptjs1]

Interesting debate. I fall into the camp that the one offence you can't really moan about is getting caught for speeding. I don't necessarily agree with the limits on certain roads, but on the few occasions (last one five years ago) that I've been caught for speeding, I've thought "Ah well, that probably makes up for all the other times when I should have been caught!"

The significant increase in fixed speed and average speed cameras means that we all have to keep checking our speed but isn't that exactly what we should be doing anyway? After all, it shouldn't be the deterrent of a camera that makes us adhere to the speed limits, should it? I suspect the refinement and performance of current cars is a contributory factor to drivers not really being aware of their speed. The first cars that I owned gave you very audible feedback of what speed you were doing, even at 30mph!

So, I've no real issue with speeding cameras but I do wish that they ploughed some of the money back into road repairs. As regards the number of offences committed, there will be a correlation to the consequence of the offence and whether that really acts as a deterrent. For example if they gave a mandatory 3-month prison sentence for speeding, then offences would almost dry up overnight and we'd all drive at 29mph in a 30mph zone, me included! Maybe bigger fines and more points are part of the answer?

Paul

[3.8etypephil]

Indeed it is. I do not believe that speed limits should exist; it is for the driver to make a judgement about what is appropriate for the immediate environment and conditions, and if not competent to do so, should have their licence removed, permanently, for dangerous driving, this being the only real motoring offence. Having said that, for the most part, I find that urban speed limits are reasonable enough in that I would be unlikely to exceed most of them under most conditions. Where unreasonably low fund raising limits are in force, I always use the cruise control to ensure that I do not add unnecessarily to government coffers. Outside of urban areas, I drive at whatever speed I consider appropriate, keeping a watchful eye out for covert and overt Old Bill, fixed and mobile tax collection devices, and of course, any other road users who may not be expecting the pace.

[Tintin]

If, on a reasonable estimate, you say that 10% of "speeding" motorists get caught then an eye watering 8 million drivers break the law every year! Speed limits are set at the lowest common denominator - the inexperienced or occasional driver, bad weather and night time driving. I am in the camp that says you drive within your own capabilities and for the conditions at any particular time - the rigorous enforcement of limits without consideration of context is unreasonable.

I also believe that boredom leading to lack of concentration is a major factor in accidents - if you drive too slowly, your mind wanders, the adrenalin does not flow and you are not alert.

I am also of the view that there is something worryingly Orwellian about agents of the state hiding in the back of vans photographing those who do not "conform" and the subsequent "automation" of issuing notices of intended prosecution without any personal interaction with the alleged offender.

Perhaps it will not be long before motorists are invited to set up standing orders to settle speeding fines.

Robbie

[J44EAG]

I hold the same view as Phil. In fact I was just about to write in a similar vein expressing almost an identical opinion.

I`ve long held the view that many drivers are unsafe at any speed. We all know about those who have little or no ability to park or manouevre a car in a confined space or drive with predictive foresite. These are the clowns we experience making rash moves on motorways with little or no planning together with the goons who stagger onto fast moving carriageways at overly slow speed or come to an abrupt stop when joining a traffic flow. Drivers with high road craft skills can pick them out with relative ease....don`t get me started on the lane hogs on the two carriageway A3 from the M25 to Portsmouth. The A34 between Winchester and Oxford also suffers the same issues. Those cretins really tease me off!

I took advance driver training courses immediately I passed my test some forty three years ago. My best instructor was a Police fast persuit driver who lived a couple of doors down the road. He made a good job of teaching me defenceive driving techniques. I hold the belief that a driver should have regular retests to ensure continued safe driving practice and be able to upgrade his licence to an enhanced level in order to drive more powerful and faster cars in line with his age and accident free experience. A higher grade of licence could also allow him to progress at faster speeds without penalty on open roads in line with his proven abilities. A technicolour flashing strobe light on the roof could signal his prowess and remit to drive at higher speeds! Needless to say that in urban situations the normal thirty or forty limit should still apply.

Mike

[XJ_Driver]

As regards the number of offences committed, there will be a correlation to the consequence of the offence and whether that really acts as a deterrent. For example if they gave a mandatory 3-month prison sentence for speeding, then offences would almost dry up overnight and we'd all drive at 29mph in a 30mph zone, me included! Maybe bigger fines and more points are part of the answer?

Worth remembering then, that a new speeding fines calculator /matrix became law in April:

https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/motorin ... -explained

[Zennan101]

John,

Thanks for that link. Ouch those fines are going to hurt and as the article indicates it's the less well off that will get hurt most. It will lead to some interesting conversations about what is 'weekly income'.

I also wonder what is going to happen when a self driving car breaks a speed limit as not all changes of limit are clearly signed, some become obscured, and temporary limits can appear overnight!

Rod

[PPV]

I totally agree with Mike and Phil having undertaken training (for work) with a police driver. However, I read the article re new fines and was extremely concerned at teh accuracy expected of our cars speedometer (in a 30 zone the fine starts at 31mph!) because my soeedo certainly is not that accurate and with the change in tyres from original etc etc this is a real problem. I do check it with a sat nav but find the speedo is slow to pick up and reduce readings quickly.
Nothing much I can do really but I was ok with the 10% leeway that seemed to be there before.
Regards.

[Tintin]

However, I read the article re new fines and was extremely concerned at teh accuracy expected of our cars speedometer (in a 30 zone the fine starts at 31mph!)

AFAIK the National Guidelines for speed camera enforcement will still apply. In a 30 mph limit this means:-

35 - 42 Driver awareness training
43 - 49 Conditional Offer
50+ Prosecution

So it seems that if you are under 35 no action is taken.

I always used to be under the impression that car speedometers were set to read slightly "over" - certainly my sat nav always indicates a speed above my speedometer.

Robbie

[PPV]

Thanks for the clarification Robbie. Trouble is my 56 year old car speedometer is not what it used to be. A bit like me really!
Regards,

[Tintin]

Oops - I have just re-read what I posted and I got it the wrong way round. What I meant to say is that my speedo tells me I am going faster than my sat nav indicates, so if I drive on my speedo I should have a margin of error in my favour. But as you suggest Paul, "my speedometer is broken/unreliable/not working officer" will cut little ice with HM constabulary.

Whatever happened to the good old days.......... "Now Sir, who do we think we are then - Stirling Moss?"!

Robbie

[Tintin]

Some interesting responses there. Successive governments have had over 100 years to persuade drivers to comply with state imposed speed limits, and judging by the number of tickets issued (and the likely number of un-caught offenders) they have demonstrably failed. So IMHO a re-think from first principles is required. From the posts here it would seem that the following are supported.

A limit to the number of times you can apply for the driving test - 3 strikes and you're out for 5 years?
Greater emphasis on and benefits from advanced driving courses
Re-testing all drivers - every 15 years rising to every 3 years over 65?
Severe penalties for habitual offenders and dangerous drivers
Lesser penalties/warnings for low level infringements and drivers with a "good" record/first time offenders

Does the club have lobbying arm?

Robbie

[Brakebuster]

OR

drive within the current law ?


BB

[Zennan101]

Robbie,

Don't assume you are OK up to 35 in a 30 limit. I was prosecuted for doing an inadvertent 33. Some Police authorities are not allowing any discretion. Picking up just 1mph of speed on a down gradient could put you in to a penalty point/ fine situation!

BB. You are absolutely correct the only solution is to drive within the speed limits. We all have to try a bit harder to comply.

Rod