Is the Law an ass?

[ng4xjs]

1mph over the speed limit and a fine in my view is not appropriate or proportionate. Whilst I do agree we need speed limits to avoid anarchy and carnage on our roads they ought to be applied in a way that manages the risk. Concentrating excessively on what speed you are doing diverts attention from other perhaps more urgent spacial awareness matters. Pedestrians, cyclists and the inconsiderate driver. Can we not engineer a common sense approach to some of this.

Nick

[J44EAG]

" Can we not engineer a common sense approach to some of this. Nick[/quote]"

Yes, I think a sensible upgrading of licences to advanced drivers could be instigated...as per my previous post on the subject. Examine drivers with enhanced skills and abilities and allow them within higher open road situations and limits to use their judgement to progress at elivated speeds if safe and appropriate conditions exist. It works in Germany, does it not? Is there any evidence to suggest that there is carnage where this type of legislation has been applied?

I believe the real problem exists in in the UK where raod craft is intrinsicaly poor. ( Rather like my spelling) Add to that the fact that so many drivers are totally disinterested in improving on their skills or making the roads safer, ruins any chance of those of us who do seek to keep our standards at high levels, has little chance of making higher speed driving a possibility. Political correctness and lack of imagination at decision making levels seems doomed to ever realy getting a handle on the issue of speed, fines, points or safety.

Mike

[steve_m]

There is absolutely no point in enhancing your driving skills if everybody else just drives around like a moron.
'Spatial awareness' does not exist anymore; everybody is too busy looking down at their fully integrated infotainment systems, satnavs, dual climate controls, automatic wipers, automatic lights, heated buttocks etc. to bother about looking out the windows to see what is actually going on in the real world.
I actually got stuck behind some dopey txxt at the recycling centre today, totally clueless; why are they permitted to drive on the roads?
I think that if you can demonstrate exceptional driving skills then the government should buy you a fully armoured, supercharged Humvee with a licence for the passenger to use the roof mounted mini-gun.
'Your turn to drive'.

[Zennan101]

This is an interesting thread.
The point about upgrading driving skills is to make everyone safer. Certainly the better qualified will be less likely to be involved in or create an accident. However the current automated methods of identifying and prosecuting those who break the speed limit would make the introduction of a higher grade licence unlikely as it would be impossible to identify that it was a higher qualified driver at the wheel at the time of the offence. It is also unlikely that a two tier speed limit would ever be considered.
Most speed limits are set for a reason and like it or not we should treat them with respect. The carefree motoring days are now long gone. Enjoy the 'Space and Grace'. The 'Pace' is no longer free to be enjoyed.

Rod

[PaulGover]

...
AFAIK the National Guidelines for speed camera enforcement will still apply. In a 30 mph limit this means:-
35 - 42 Driver awareness training
43 - 49 Conditional Offer
50+ Prosecution
...

Last time I needed to look (i.e. was given the opportunity to brush up my driving skills at a Speed Awareness course) it varies by police authority. In Hampshire, I think it's only 30-39 mph for the course.

The basic problem with the current speed cameras is they work, as does the asinine law, on the principle that speeding is an "absolute" offence - i.e. there are no mitigating circumstances, if you do 30.0001 mph, you've broken the law. An intelligent approach would take into account road, traffic, car and location conditions - speeding at 3am on an empty motorway on a dry warm moonlight night (I remember seeing one once - nowadays of course they're all single lane for "carriageway maintenance" (retrieving fag packets from the verge)) is pretty unlikely to cause any danger, whereas doing a legal 30 mph through a modern housing estate (each with a double garage containing washing machines and cardboard boxes, two cars on what used to be the front lawn, and the 4x4 parked half on the road and half on the pavement) on a rainy day is risky. Maybe someday there'll be a decent AI speed camera

[Tintin]

However the current automated methods of identifying and prosecuting those who break the speed limit would make the introduction of a higher grade licence unlikely as it would be impossible to identify that it was a higher qualified driver at the wheel at the time of the offence.

When you receive a "Notice of Intended Prosecution" you are required to identify the driver at the time of the alleged offence and disclose your driving licence number. Failure to identify the driver or giving misleading information risks a £1,000 fine and 6 points on your licence and criminal proceedings. Disclosure of your licence number will identify the licence holder as a "higher qualification" driver or not. If the same sanctions applied in the scenario suggested above there would be no problem in identifying a "higher qualification" driver as the alleged offender.

Robbie

[Zennan101]

A good point well made. Even if the driver could be identified as higher qualified I still don't believe a a two tier speed limit system would be viable. Where would the line for a higher qualified driver be drawn? Would the exemption apply to all speed limits? The argument is that a higher qualified driver could use his/her greater skills to judge the appropriate speed for the situation but how is that judgement to be assessed. For example given perfect driving conditions and very low risk 80mph or 10mph over the limit may be considered perfectly acceptable but what if the higher qualified driver was doing considerably more on the basis that he/she considered it a safe speed? Who will judge their judgement? It cannot be that higher qualified drivers are totally exempt from speed limits so a second set of limits would have to be set and we would then be back to where we are now. Qualified drivers measured against current limits. Higher qualified drivers measured against a higher limits. Both groups would be prosecuted using the same automated mechanisms that currently auto police traffic speeds.
IMHO this is a great suggestion but it will never gain general support. I can see the logic of the argument but the more I think about it the less I think I would support it.

Rod

[steve_m]

How is an idiot driver supposed to assess the speed of a 'higher qualified' driver that is approaching? From either the front or from behind?
Here's a bit of blue sky thinking; how about if we all obeyed the speed limits?
Make it illegal for manufacturers to produce cars that could exceed the National speed limit?
Mmm, got you thinking, has it not? (Sorry, couldn't find the Yoda emoticon).

[Tintin]

The basic problem with the current speed cameras is they work, as does the asinine law, on the principle that speeding is an "absolute" offence - i.e. there are no mitigating circumstances, if you do 30.0001 mph, you've broken the law.

This is the nub of the problem. There is an infinite range of driving ability and competence but a speed limit is a "one size fits all" absolute red line. Some may find driving at the limit too fast - for others it will be mind numbingly boring, cause frustration and lead to risk taking.

I am in the camp that says you drive to the conditions appertaining at the time and to your own ability. In order to allow that to happen Mikes higher qualification suggestion comes into play. In effect, higher qualified drivers would be allowed some latitude when exceeding the speed limit. The camera snaps you at, say, 45 in a 40 - the computerised system identifies you as a higher qualified driver - you get a letter in the post reminding you to be careful, but you don't get a ticket and a fine. There would be conditions of course - regular offenders etc would have their higher status rescinded.

On a slightly different note. Interesting that there are "National Guidelines for Speed Camera Enforcement" but not all forces observe them. So, in one authority you will be "done" for 31 in a 30, and in the adjacent authority you will get away with 34 in a 30. Now I ask you, where is the sense and logic in that - and what message does it send out to the driving public - other than force a) needs to generate more income this year but force b) has already reached it's quota of motoring fine income. 800,000 fines (see first post) x £90 = £72 million if my arithmetic is correct. Who says there is no financial incentive here?

Robbie

[Brakebuster]

How is an idiot driver supposed to assess the speed of a 'higher qualified' driver that is approaching? From either the front or from behind?
Here's a bit of blue sky thinking; how about if we all obeyed the speed limits?
Make it illegal for manufacturers to produce cars that could exceed the National speed limit?
Mmm, got you thinking, has it not? (Sorry, couldn't find the Yoda emoticon).

here here,

highly qualified or not , when a 3 year old steps out in to the road , do you really want to be driving faster then the speed limit ?? predict that !!

a lot of work vans, and some company cars are now speed restricted to national speed limits, accelerating cant get you out of a situation,,,,TRY BRAKING !!! and if someone slams you up the back then they were going to fast and not paying attention.....

I will say no more,

BB

[PPV]

How many people commenting have completed any form of advanced or defensive driving instruction I wonder as some of the things you should consider is spacial awarenes and this includes relative speeds of others. As such being able to acclerate is just as much a tool for avaiding accidents as braking is, plus of course the ability to take controlled avoiding action. Of course prime rules are driving in accordance with prevailing circumstances so I am an advocate of not just lowering speed limits but ensuring those on the roads are indeed competent drivers. As such anyone involved in causing or exhibiting bad driving should be retested.

[3.8etypephil]

How is an idiot driver supposed to assess the speed of a 'higher qualified' driver that is approaching? From either the front or from behind?
Here's a bit of blue sky thinking; how about if we all obeyed the speed limits?
Make it illegal for manufacturers to produce cars that could exceed the National speed limit?
Mmm, got you thinking, has it not? (Sorry, couldn't find the Yoda emoticon).

Idiots are not able to assess anything, from any direction. Here's a bit of constructive thinking that would improve all of our lives; how about if only the competent were drivers? Speed limits should not exist; dangerous driving covers all scenarios, except for revenue generation. If Jaguar were not allowed to make cars capable of exceeding 70 mph, how many would they sell in more enlightened markets, or for that matter here?

[poprivet]

A few weeks ago I spotted a camera van while I was 'making some progress', not that excessive but a good 10% over at a guess.

Yesterday a very official looking brown envelope was on the front door mat, with some trepidation I opened it expecting the worse but found it was a cheque for £1,200 for overpayment of income tax. Phew!

I suppose it is still possible to get a NIP but at least if i do I can now pay the fine

[steve_m]

Oops - I have just re-read what I posted and I got it the wrong way round. What I meant to say is that my speedo tells me I am going faster than my sat nav indicates, so if I drive on my speedo I should have a margin of error in my favour. But as you suggest Paul, "my speedometer is broken/unreliable/not working officer" will cut little ice with HM constabulary.

Whatever happened to the good old days.......... "Now Sir, who do we think we are then - Stirling Moss?"!

Robbie

You can get away with saying that; if you actually are Stirling Moss.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profile ... rling-moss

[ng4xjs]

Not sure that retesting Drives and particularly the over 65s (I'm nearly there)is the answer. It's the individuals ability and aptitude that fall to be questioned. We all think we are good/excellent behind the wheel but there is always room or improvement. Eg.it's a natural reaction when driving along, keeping your 2 second gap to the vehicle in front someone cuts in and you have to slow down. Even i this happens say 60 times over a 60 mile trip you've only been delayed 1 minute, Does it really matter.

My Dad is 90 and his driving I would say is still very good. He does not dawdle but passengers including me feel safe. That's the point isn't it.

I've driven fast (legally on German roads) and of course yest it is fun but in truth these days whilst o course I enjoy speed it's not the most important element of enjoyment. I do remember the days before the 70mph speed limit as well but different times.

Nick