Following on from the Seminar...XJS Workshops: a suggestion

[jBlackwell]

Does lightning strike 3 times - yes it does, again I agree with BB - I think the idea of a basic maintenance seminar would be better (and more cost effectively) covered by online video tutorials.

Video online tutorial, now there is an idea that we have toyed with. How to implement and what medium do we use to distribute it, youtube (subscribe), our own format?

Personally I think this idea has legs, but I can see it being a large project to implement, BUT the scope is quite large, interior repairs with Furniture Clinic, general Jaguar Health Check, buyers Guides, etc.

They all have potential.

Maybe it needs a group of like minded individuals with the right skills to investigate and present correctly?

James

[ptjs1]

James,

There's been lots of great thoughts and comments articulated in this thread and it really applies to the support that the club should provide for all models and members.

I guess this is a polite request for the club to have an ongoing strategy for model services that reflects the changing needs of owners and the capabilities enabled by new technologies.

On the positive side we have much more cost-effective technologies and tools available to owners such as OBD diagnostics and relatively cheaper home maintenance tools. We also have new distribution technologies such as video conferencing, online streaming etc. Eight years ago, two of us videoed the whole XJS seminar, but the club had no capability to make that available online to other members. Today, it would be a matter of minutes to set up an online meeting to share such seminars real-time to all members, and also provide an online archive of the day. This type of technology can enable a broader audience who don't have to travel, and also provide access to technical activities without some of the restriction of H&S practices. We can also have realtime online Q&As at these events. As far as I know, the club has never used this type of approach, even though its commonplace in both the corporate and club world. There are plenty of cost-effective online meeting sites. Why don't we try videoconferencing (or online meeting) the AGM this year? Certainly an online meeting with slides would be very easy to do, with suitable security to limit access to members.

On the downside, the increasing recognition of safety issues means we can't all crawl under a car in a seminar so we have to find ways (such as the above) to get over those challenges. However, I am sure that some of our technical experts could run a small event for, say, max 20 attendees at a local workshop. I suspect we're more likely to be able to attract 20 attendees to such events (which can be in different parts of the country and maybe co-ordinated by the local Region?) than get 100 members to come to he Midlands.

At the risk of sounding critical (again), it's all about strategy development and ideas, something that the club seems to struggle with at times. We need to start trying new things, even if we get some of them wrong. As they say, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs!

Cheers

Paul

[dhdove]

An interesting debate with many positive suggestions, my thoughts re previous seminars are in the links provided by Paul.
Some more thoughts as follows....

I don't think a hands on seminar on changing oil, brake pads, spark plugs, points etc. is a fruitful use of our resources. TBH by the time you get to owning an XJS I would expect that you should know these things, tho little tips like not over tightening the drain plug and stripping the sump thread are always useful. However getting your own car up on a ramp and having an expert look over the bits you never normally see would be most useful I think. When we last visited KWE they did this for several members cars and found quite a few faults (including my seized air-con compressor, I had wondered why there was no belt on it......). As has been pointed out you can only get so many people around a càr on a ramp irrespective of modern H&S legislation. But if you had two or three ramps available you could get through quite a few cars in a day.
NB Merc dealers offer a health check on all models which normally costs £100+, I organised an MB Club regional event at MB South West last year where they did thirteen members cars in a Saturday morning all free of charge, plus tea coffee and a raffle! Do Jaguar dealers offer a similar service?
Similarly I see little value in hands on demos of more complicated repairs due to time and the boredom factor, I really don't want to watch your car having its seat belt mounts welded or its clutch changed thank you.

So, inspections and OBD yes, otherwise re service items if you can't do it yourself, learn (other local members will often be happy to offer help and advice for tea and biscuits usually) or put your hand in your pocket.......I don't think the Club should devote resources to teach XJS owning members basic car care.
An alternative approach would be a NEW "all models" car care seminar covering basic service items for those members who don't know their way around under the bonnet.....this may prove increasingly popular in these days of computer controlled day to day cars (and younger Classic Jaguar owners)where you can't really do anything for yourself In terms of maintenance? Plugs, points, oil and air filters etc are pretty much the same across a wide range of classic Jags.

Re the seminar format I still think that there needs to be an overview and entertainment as well as technical advice. As the car gets older there will be more and more members who do not remember the model as a new car and contemporary as I do, nor it's development history or marketing strategy. How many "new" XJS owners have seen a brand new XJS in the showroom? These things become more, rather than less important as time goes on I think. They certainly lighten what can otherwise be a very heavy day. Also the six cylinder/twelve cylinder technical spilt should be restored.

Perhaps a way forward is to have the seminar in a modified more wide ranging format and then offer a subsequent hands on inspection and diagnosis event afterwards for those who are interested in having their car inspected/diagnosed at a main dealer (surely there is a JEC friendly, "tame" main dealer with an older technician who is knowledgable on the model who could offer this?) or a specialist such as Dave Marks or other.

Paul's thoughts on new technologies bear further investigation and perhaps the Club should devote some resources to exploring the various opportunities these offer to members?

That's it for the Mo!

Best
TonyS

[bokapita]

I believe that the following topics could be usefully covered in a series of hands on seminars (in the context of a Lucas ignition V12 HE for example):

a) ignition timing setup
b) distributor maintenace including vacuum capsule change
c) fuel swirl tank cleaning and sock filter and main filter replacement
d) inboard rear brake maintenance including hand brake actuation
e) rustproofing including trim removal to facilitate
f) injection harness replacement, injector hose and injector testing
g) rack bush changing
h) gearbox mount maintenance and fluid changing
i) cooling system maintenance including radiator cleaning, thermostat and water pump changing
j) engine oil leak prevention
k) fuel delivery system maintenance and replacement procedures for the pipes and pressure regulators involved
l) electrical system maintenance including earth point cleaning, instrument binnacle maintenance, under bonnet loom maintenance and replacement
m) headliner replacement

A hands on seminar means having the opportunity to see, feel, touch, ask, not that a person does 100% of the work themselves on their own car at the seminar. The club really ought to get behind these ideas, and to make an effort with video channels following the seminars. The fearsomely polite requests for action I have read here seem to me symptomatic of an anxiety that the club management are far too hidebound for new ideas to be acted upon if a reason can be found to not.

The website of the club is a case in point. It is, apart from the bulletin boards, quite unreadably dull with a dearth of interesting items to pull the user back frequently. Where are the maintenance tips of the day, where are the interesting stories, where are the "this garage is good" lists, where are the "the most fun in my jaguar" anecdotes, where are "my best modification" stories? The club is not modern enough or active enough in the digital arena, shows no imagination in its use and no sign of realising its weaknesses. The club needs a strategy for these matters, just like the seminars, and it has not got one.

[Jagdcat]

''otherwise re service items if you can't do it yourself, learn ''

…..trust me, I'm trying to, hence this post!

Jagd

[dhdove]

''otherwise re service items if you can't do it yourself, learn ''

…..trust me, I'm trying to, hence this post!

Jagd

JagD

Yes, sorry, that does read as rather brusque none intended. I grew up tinkering around with cars and have owned classics of one sort or another for many years. I guess I take basic service items for granted and expect others to do so too.
I appreciate that not everyone will have done these things, especially those who grew up with more modern vehicles where even the most basic things are either very difficult or need a laptop!
Hopefully from this debate will come a positive way forward to give members what they need.

Best
TonyS

[jBlackwell]

The club is not modern enough or active enough in the digital arena, shows no imagination in its use and no sign of realising its weaknesses. The club needs a strategy for these matters, just like the seminars, and it has not got one.

Hi,
This is slightly off topic so I will not go on too much. You raise a good point. We have a huge list of things we would like to do with our website and services, and as I have said on many occasion on here and in the magazine, if you have any ideas or points to raise about the website, please either call or email me. Paul Sinnot will (hopefully) confirm, I am approachable and willing to talk about how we can best bring the Club forward, especially in relation to the website.
I am not going to sit here and make excuses, there is alot more we can do, and want to do, most of it comes down to time and man power to implement, we simply do not have it. All I can do is confirm that we have already started the consultation on the next generation of the website. This is being created as part of an overall strategy not just of the online offering but overall business strategy. This will not just be a new website, but it WILL closer integrate the website into the Club offering, unite many parts and hopefully put us more inline with what web users expect.

What I will request is please keep supplying me with ideas, keep letting me/us know what you as the member want, we cannot supply the services and ideas if we do not know.

email: james.blackwell@jec.org.uk
Tel: 0117 9698186

James Blackwell
Assistant General Manager

[dhdove]

James

Thanks for that very frank reply, a few points.

" if you have any ideas or points to raise about the website, please either call or email me. Paul Sinnot will (hopefully) confirm, I am approachable and willing to talk about how we can best bring the Club forward, especially in relation to the website."
Do we really need to email you? The BB is a very immediate way of communication and surely if a member posts here then they have expressed their view for all, including the powers that be to see? I presume that all the Club Committee are regularly monitoring or at least pointed in the direction of relevent BB posts nowadays? If not........

"I am not going to sit here and make excuses, there is alot more we can do, and want to do, most of it comes down to time and man power to implement, we simply do not have"
I'm actually pleased to hear this, bizarrely. In the past the problem has been that the Club Committee showed little or no interest in web based developments, new technolgy ideas or the BB in general.

"All I can do is confirm that we have already started the consultation on the next generation of the website"
Oh dear.....here we go again........

All of the above points are made semi tongue in cheek , without offence being meant, but nonetheless are based on bitter experience. Some of us have been banging on about these things for years with precious little interest or support from "The Management". I really do hope that this is about to change. It's long overdue.

Regards
See you all on Friday At the NEC

TonyS

[jBlackwell]

Hi Tony,
No offence taken Tony, see you Friday at the NEC.

James

[dhdove]

See you then,

TonyS

[BRIANH]

KC

JAGUAR MAINTENANCE TUITION

There have been some very good ideas recently with the messages on Jaguar maintenance tuition concerning people doing their own maintenance and rebuilding work on Jaguars.
When you see the results of the work done by people like Brake Buster (XJS rebuild) and others it is quite obvious that the routine maintenance work can be done by the average owner.
I think all the cars from quite a distant age (say the 1960’s XJ to the 2000’s XK) have quite a few items and parts in common. These are mostly from chassis sub-frames and
running gear as well as engine and transmission items.
The courses we are discussing could be built around the Service routines for each model and the work would basically follow the Service Manuals. All parts should, I think, be of Jaguar Classic Parts supply, dearer to buy but to the correct specifications.
I do not think we would have any trouble gathering Owners to fill the courses at attractive prices.
The main problems I see are venues and how we get around the Health and Safety Legislation as well as Insurance cover for any work we are proposing to do.
We would have to arrange the courses to take place in Technical Further Education centres such as Salford and others.
I would be happy to help organise a model scheme with others who are like minded

Brianh

[bokapita]

Hi,
This is slightly off topic so I will not go on too much. You raise a good point. We have a huge list of things we would like to do with our website and services, and as I have said on many occasion on here and in the magazine, if you have any ideas or points to raise about the website, please either call or email me. Paul Sinnot will (hopefully) confirm, I am approachable and willing to talk about how we can best bring the Club forward, especially in relation to the website.
I am not going to sit here and make excuses, there is alot more we can do, and want to do, most of it comes down to time and man power to implement, we simply do not have it. All I can do is confirm that we have already started the consultation on the next generation of the website. This is being created as part of an overall strategy not just of the online offering but overall business strategy. This will not just be a new website, but it WILL closer integrate the website into the Club offering, unite many parts and hopefully put us more inline with what web users expect.

What I will request is please keep supplying me with ideas, keep letting me/us know what you as the member want, we cannot supply the services and ideas if we do not know.

email: james.blackwell@jec.org.uk
Tel: 0117 9698186

James Blackwell
Assistant General Manager

Look James, you do not need consultation. You do not need special emails. You need to act on sensible ideas, many of which are on this thread. I could find you a guy (no commercial affiliations) who can build an entirely new website from scratch, fitted ready and working including all necessary consultation, for under 15.000 UKP. As for adding the facility to the existing site to put up daily tips, short interesting articles, make the model info much more dynamic and update-able, etc etc etc this could be done very inexpensively.

The site looks like a 1950s magazine, changes to the main content are rare and often untopical, items are hard to find. The editorialising of the site is the underlying problem because the people concerned seem to think it is a billboard, not a website. The front page is an advertising hoarding, not an invitiation to go deeper. Someone at the club's paid management level needs to take charge and fix it, not make excuses for inaction by wanting consultation and other well known long grass tactics. A website is a dynamic thing, it is not an architectural edifice that must be right before a brick is laid. I do not claim the inaction and timidity of the management is mendacious, I believe it is motivated by fear of the unknown. And if, as you seem to imply, there is nobody who has the required skills or time, then as I have suggested, hire an expert, give interested knowledgeable members the executive power to instruct same, and identify a full timer whose job it will be to be trained to post daily updates, topical items etc etc. - easily doable and no more difficult than using Word. Anything that the members want changed can always be changed inexpensively on a well constructed site. Think of a site as a framework, built by a specialist, which the non-specialist can use after a little training. Much like driving a car, the guys who made it are specialists, the guys who drive it are not, and where they drive it is up to them.

The club has to swallow this difficult fact: this is a management motivation issue, nothing else.

[Jagdcat]

Brian H

Thank you for your support.

I think a basic assumption prevailing in a number of posts is if you have bought an XJS then clearly you know how to maintain them. Sadly, a number of us don't - hence me trucking my XJS from Suffolk to David Marks for a report on her condition.

What also feels lost in translation here is the added value of spending a day /2 days with other owners/experts and the sheer wealth of knowledge that would be naturally embedded and shared. If you know your XJS inside out, I applaud you - perhaps you might volunteer to help out hose who wish to learn?

Asides, I suppose my original hands-on suggestion came from the euphoria of purchasing a car that is certainly more complex than the Tiger Moths, C-152's, etc I fly and the various light aircraft maintenance workshops I have attended, especially designed for aircraft flown on a 'permit'. The RYA run similar engine courses for people at various locations around the UK too.

I can see, from other posts, there are annoyances with aspects of the way forward for this club but, being so new here, am not sure I can comment.

However, the one fact that really does strike me as incredible is the @ 16,000 members JEC attracts; bear in mind there are only @ 20,000 active UK private pilots prepared to spend anything up to 150 pounds an hour to fly 40 year old aircraft!. Methinks three hour's flying quickly usurps a two day car workshop which suddenly looks wonderful value.

I think AOPA, LAA, etc would give their right arm to attract so many members so look forward to good times ahead for JEC, given the amazing level of support it receives.

Jagd

[Brakebuster]

i think the point the club ( the management and others ) are saying is that they dont think there is enough interest in ' Basic ' maintenance for an XJS to justify a course in changing oil and fitting new brake pads,

this sort of basic work can be covered in any workshop tutorial laid on by a local college , and for less money , as the basics are just that, the same for any car ,,,,,, modern or not ,

once the basics are obtained more in-depth matters as gearbox and engine matters may well be more of a draw , along with complex suspension issues etc

you would not expect the club to do a tutorial in welding your XJS , as welding is the same on any car, and a night course at a college will teach you what you need, then you can chat to Jag owners for the intricacies of our cars for the common causes etc ,

i DO feel there is an audience for learning how to do an oil change on a 1989 V12 Jaguar for example , but an online video tutorial would be the best medium for this basic information , and it would reach more people for a cheaper cost and accessible at any time the club member wants/ needs

now, lets not diss our club , if you dont like the way its run , then stand for ' office ' and make a difference…… and then watch as others have a go at how you think things should be done

at the end of the day , its a car club , lets enjoy

BB

[raysearles]

Hear hear BB,

Myself James and Brian will do our best to pull these ideas together and put some ideas forward in 2014, then we can see if that works how it can be developed for out other models.

Thanks