LOSS OF COOLANT + BLUE SMOKE AT IDLE

[Brakebuster]

the issue with accessing the cylinder heads on a v12 is that to inspect one head, means 90% of everything you need to remove is already done for the other head,

so , yes, there is a cost implication , not much in parts, but probably another day in labour ,

the big fear is that with one head repiared, you then develope trouble with the other side which means stripping the engine all over again

i would assess the damaged side,as you may have a warped head , but allow for new gaskets and seals on the other side, as this is good practice

as for trailering the car, a reputable garage should include this in the costs .

good luck with either option

BB ( vince )

[ptjs1]

Andrew,

There are other members and specialists who have far more knowledge than I do about the V12 engine. However, what we do know is that you definitely seem to have a problem on one head, but we're not sure about the other, particularly as the car drove ok only a short while ago.

There's a lot of work involved in stripping the fuel equipment and ancillaries to get to the heads. But there's still quite a bit of work to get each head off. Others may have different views but my suggestion would still be to pull all the plugs and do a compression test on each cylinder of the "unknown" cylinder head, before deciding whether to take it off. If you were doing the work yourself at home, you may decide to change both head gaskets anyway, but if you're paying hourly labour rates and the compression test seems to indicate that all is well on the unknown bank, then it may only be necessary to deal with the "bad" head. I think you're absolutely doing the right thing in not starting the car but a quick compression test with al the plugs out should be ok if the engine hadn't seized before you last turned it off.

There are a number of XJS specialists known to the club but it depends if you're looking for someone fairly local to you or are prepared to travel further. The other aspect is that you don't necessarily need an XJS expert but you do need someone who is very proficient with the Jaguar V12 engine. Although you have a late 6 litre car, it's fundamentally the same V12 engine as used since 1971 in E-Types, XJ12s etc etc. So good quality engineering companies rather than Jaguar specialists may be another cost-effective option

It's important that you find the right person in terms of distance, competence and cost and I think you're doing the right thing by seeking as much info and opinion before jumping in. Definitely contact your local region and maybe go along to this months meeting and talk to some people. The annual Jaguar London to Brighton run is on this Sunday. If you fancy a drive to Brighton, there will be 300+ Jaguars to see and maybe talk to a few owners.

Keep posting here, Andrew. Even if it's just sympathy you're getting from us, it all helps to make you see the light at the end of the tunnel! And feel free to ring me if you need to check anything with me.

Paul

[J44EAG]

I would certainly be considering options for this job.

Firstly you need to try to find out exactly which head gasket is blown and the best way of doing this is to have the car compression tested. Individual cylinder pressures on a good engine will be broadly similar. One or two cylinders with low compression are likely to point towards the problem area as would probably be the appearance of spark plugs which may be covered in moisture from coolant escaping via a blown gasket.

As I understand it gasket sets for V12 5.3 and 6.0 units are the same part number. JLM 12229-OE. One or more of the guys using this BB will be able to confirm suitability. Here are a couple of links to gasket sets I found on ebay. One set at £80 including post and another from British Parts at £113. So those parts are quite affordable but that could be the thin end of the wedge! . Do please check suitability before you buy.
http://britishparts.co.uk/products/5227 ... d-JLM12229
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-XJ12-X ... e%3AJaguar

You may also need to buy a complete new set of head bolts. Others here will be able to advise if head bolts on the V12 can be reused or if replacements will be needed. Head bolts can be rather expensive.

Without doubt, your biggest expenditure will be labour costs. Rebuilding is a time consuming, dirty and somewhat frustrating business and with the V12 there is a considerable amount of work to be done. Effectively you have two engines joined on a common crank shaft to deal with, each of three litre capacity. Rebuilding "two" engines will double the work and effort needed when compared to a one headed six cylinder engine.

Not having stripped one of these units, I can`t advise whether access from under the car will be needed to for instance remove the exhaust manifolds. The V12 is a massive and heavy lump and if an engine change were to be envisaged then full garage facilities for lifting and a ramp for raising the car above head height would be required. Costs would then start to really accumulate.

The need for an experienced Jaguar V12 man is almost mandatory I would have thought. The volume and complexity of this engine really does require more knowledge than a young mechanic recently out of technical college could possibly possess. A time served mature engineer is the sort of chap you would need together with his decent tool kit. That would obviously come at some cost for his hourly labour rate where you will be paying for his experience and attention to detail. The man involved will need to know about camshaft timing and be able to mark up sprockets and chains to avoid the very precise timing of those parts being lost during a head overhaul.

In addition to a gasket set, there is also inevitably the cost of planing the heads flat at a machine shop and buying of other parts to replace parts that have become tired with use or are showing signs of aging. It just isn`t worth leaving worn items or an otherwise rebuilt engine.

The option of replacing the complete engine with a known good unit is also possible but underside access would be needed as would be the facility to lift, support and move an extremely heavy engine from under the car. Exhausts would need to come off and the gearbox removed. Again the right man and facilities would be required.

Last year I owned a rather curious Q-plate V12 XJS for a few weeks. In the document pack dated 2002 were a couple of very large receipts on of which one was for head gasket replacement. The bill resembled the National Debt as it would appear that replacement parts were bought individually. Costs might have been cheaper if ebay had been in action at that time. The parts list ran to two pages with the total job at professional labour rates and VAT came to well over £2900! Here is the link to my brief sojourn into V12 ownership.
http://www.jec.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6515

Don`t give up on getting this car fixed at a rather more reasonable figure than the above. Someone and something will turn up as an answer. Research and inquiry is well worth the time and effort and the guys here will always be pleased to help you decide the best way forward.

Mike K

[steve_m]

Is it worth trying to turn the engine over without starting it to make sure that it hasn't seized? It would need to be cranked anyway to do a compression test but if it has seized then it may help to point the way forward.

[Portiacat]

Fellow JEC Members, many apologies for being 'Off-Line' and not providing any update/resolution to my XJS V12 smoking engine mystery. You may recall that in March this year my mid-life crises impulse unexpectedly activated resulting in my purchase of the aforementioned vehicle. In short the entire episode has so far been awarded the status of 'TOTAL DISASTER'. Following the correct priming process for the coolant system and the resulting violent expulsive bursts of water from the Right Hand exhaust I decided, upon recommendation, to have the car conveyed to XJ Restorations in Sussex. Top top people thoroughly professional yet completely approachable and highly dedicated. Following pressure testing, the car was diagnosed with definitely 1 maybe two Head Gasket issues that required engine strip, Head Skim, replacement gasket kit(s) and re-build. The cost of the job (inc vat) was 4 digits long and started with a 3!!! None-the-less I though I had no choice but to proceed as who wants an XJS with V12 blown engine?? It turned out to be the correct decision to elect to remove both Heads as they were both severely damaged, with virtually no gasket left to remove. The Heads were inspected and considered to be just about salvageable following 'extended play' in the Machine Shop. Half way through this process the Heads were declared beyond repair due to the extent of corrosion within caused by the water that had flowed through them and could no longer be used. Now I owned an XJS V12 with only HALF a blown engine. Brilliant!!! The principal at 'XJ Restorations' Keith Parrington, very kindly used his contacts to source me a very good pair of replacement Heads for £480 (inc vat). I was teetering on the edge of emotional meltdown trying to weigh up the options: throw the car away for scrap or pour masses of money into it. I took comfort in XJ's professional opinion that the vehicle had been professionally fudged in order to off load it to some 'stupid-boy-hood-dream-romanticist' like me. In addition it was thought that the vehicle had been stored (already broken) for some time prior to purchase hence the outrageous levels of corrosion. It was thought unlikely that anything but a comprehensive inspection would have highlighted these issues hence the successful pre-purchase inspection, test drive and 300 initial miles. The rest of the car conversely was deemed to be in excellent order. After forty days in the workshop, and many many difficult conversations at the dinner table, I collected the car today having been successfully screwed back together. The car is now running super smooth and still looks incredible (in my view). Due to the effects of exhaust baffle removing water erosion, the car now has a deeper rumble, almost growl to it (every cloud). However with the final bill remaining 4 digits, yet this time starting with a 5, my self confidence in this project along with my matrimonial standing in my own household is truly beyond repair. Now is the time to put some well deserved miles on it, but today...my heart is not in it. I think I should have embarked on 'Off-Shore Power Boat Racing' as a more cost effective past time!!! I will update this forum with waves of euphoria should any arrive. A massive thank you to all at 'XJ Restorations' and all contributors to my recent plight. I couldn't have reached any resolution without you.
Andrew.

[PaulE]

I hesitate to mention it in this company as I admit it is almost heresy, but another solution for you and a guaranteed success would be to use one of the kits still available at modest cost in the USA to remove the engine and to substitute a Chevrolet V8 unit. Full details were to be found on line last time I looked, and it would seem that the performance level of the car can be improved to whatever level you want as fettling that engine has been developed over many years, and it is still the engine of choice for hot rodders.
If you need any more info I can put you in touch with a local (S.Yorks) specialist who amuses himself by building 1000 bhp drag saloons as well as his main job as a V8 engine man.

PS>I wrote this before reading your last entry, so congratulations on finally having a usable car, and every sympathy about the cost. Looks like there may be a legal route which could be taken, but imagine the hassle and even more cost. There would be room for this frightening 'Caveat Emptor' story in our magazine.

[ptjs1]

Andrew,

Congratulations on getting through what must have been an extremely difficult time for you. As you know, I think you've done the right thing as the car would have been extremely difficult to sell with the blown engine.

If it's any comfort, I was done at Keith's a couple of weeks ago, planning the suspension rebuild on my car which goes in tomorrow. Whilst there, I had a look at your blown engine and also the car. The head gaskets were, as you described, very badly blown and it was obvious, even to me, that at least one head was very badly corroded.

The good news is that I thought the car generally was really very good and, in my opinion, definitely justified the investment in getting the engine rebuilt. The car looks to have had a well-maintained and fairly cosseted life with the major XJS areas seeming to be in very good condition.

Yes, I know the bill is a fairly bitter pill to swallow. But now it's done, there's no looking back and an opportunity to really enjoy the car! I'm glad that I was able to be of some small help and I'm really pleased that you can now enjoy that great engine this summer!

Cheers

Paul

[Brakebuster]

Well done with sticking with it and biting the bullet cost wise, as already said, its an expensive lesson, but look at it this way... you now have a sorted XJS , not many people can say that with confidence ,


so now is the time to get some fashionable shades, a nice short sleeved shirt and go drive it out in the sunshine for everyone to admire ,

time to enjoy

BB

[XjRestorations]

A very hard time for you Andrew, and whilst it has been a pleasure to meet and help you - it's a shame it was under such extreme circumstances!
I will try and post some images later today/this evening of the work completed - it was one of the worst V12 top ends we have seen in a good while.

And Mr Sinnot - you were not 'done' here a couple of weeks ago at all

[ptjs1]

Keith,

Sorry, I meant "...I was down at Keith's a couple of weeks ago...", not "...I was done at Keith's..."

Freudian slip!

Paul

[Portiacat]

Thank you all once again for your very kind words and support for the path I have chosen. Have used the car again today for the third consecutive day and yes in best cruising shirt, reassuringly expensive sunglasses and proper smouldering expression. It is just the best thing. Proper whaftie and a true ego inflator. The only fall back with any journey is that my progress is hampered by my need to stop periodically and get out just to look at it in the sunshine. Just stunning. I realise I am still in my post-poned honeymoon period and of course the credit card bill for recent work undertaken hasn't arrived yet. But since it's resuscitation by XJ restorations it really is doing for me what I hoped it would. Just fab.
Andrew.

[dhdove]

Andrew
Whilst of little consolation at the moment to your bruised (if not battered) credit card and your undoubtedly rocky domestic situation, may I also add my opinion that you have done the right thing. I know it is an absolutely agonising decision having bought a cherished car and found it to be a lemon, then to find that it's even worse that you first thought! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
However, take solace that the bill will get paid, time will go by and .....eventually.....as time slips by.....it will become an amusing story to tell your friends and fellow owners down the pub or at rallies.
It's also worth noting. With that bill in your history file the car will be a much more attractive and valuable prospect to a potential buyer in the future.
Just a note of caution. Do be extra vigilant during these early "running in" days. Hose clips can leak, an odd bolt may not be secure etc. You may even want to take it back for an (FOC I hope) inspection after 500 or a thousand miles?

Very Best Wishes
And enjoy a glorious motor!

TonyS

[XJR-S]

I've just read your harrowing tale, and though the numbers are slightly different (Mine will probably begin with a 2 by the time it's finished) but I've been through the same domestic challenges! Mine is still with my mechanic, though I've been promised it's return on Monday/Tuesday next week, I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

The biggest problem for me (and my wife especially!) is getting over the 'stigma' of the stress (let alone the expense) that the car has caused. I'm overjoyed to hear that you are loving it and I hope when mine makes it's big return, that we are the same.

Any top tips to help the Mrs love it again? (Again may be a misnomer).

Interestingly I was given a pair of ported HE heads + cams in payment for some work a few months back, I was thinking about flogging them, but after reading this, I might just sit on them for a rainy day and hope I never need them.

[BRIANH]

portiacat,

I am sorry to hear your story of the trouble you are having with your engine.

There is a Jaguar maintenance man who has been working on XJS cars for many years and lives in Farnham, Surrey. He trades as PSV Engineering, charges £50.00 an hour and is not too far away from you. Now Paul is willing to have a chat with regard to helping you out of your problem. Give him a ring on 07785 534488 mobile or 01252 818800 and see. He advises that he charges £50.00 an hour and no VAT.

Best regards,

Brian Harris

[ptjs1]

Brian,

If you read the thread, you'll see that Andrew had his engine fixed last July by Keith Parrington and all seems to be well (apart from his wallet, naturally!),

Paul