Ethanol damage to infrequently ran cars.

[ROSSYSTEVE]

Following on from my last two posts...

I stripped the Carbs and found very little dirt and debris there , so boxed up and spoke to David Manners regarding ordering a manual Choke.
During the conversation I pointed out that the a.e.d was only fitted last August and the car had only done around 100 Mile since.

The tech Guy there was very helpful and offered to sort out on warranty, but also pointed out that the infrequent use of the car was ultimately the problem due to Ethanol in the petrol attacking the inners of the a.e.d, In paticular the diaphragms and any brass parts within.

I will be fitting the Manual choke soon... Can anyone else substantiate his claims?

Also any tips on the fitting, ie cable through bulk head, carb settings etc .
Thanks For now

Steve.

[stuarthardy]

Sounds like the parts suppliers have found a new excuse for the sub-standard parts they peddle!

I can't see that this would happen in such a short space of time.

Whatever happened to the Club's parts evaluation service? We used to have a voice about such matters.

[piman]

Hello Steve,

regarding ethanol in petrol, the warning that the Fbhvc has been making is more in regard to the imminent allowable increase of the ethanol level to 10%. I understood that the current 5% is not a real problem?

Alec

[J44EAG]

The problems associated with ethanol enriched fuels are not unknown. This is worth a read.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/news/hig ... ar-311037/

My own experience with petrol engined , cars, boats and aircraft and their fuel systems, is that water can accumulate in fuel tanks. I approach the issue from three directions and that method is not just confined to machinery that has been known to be operating on to ethanol based fuels. I am however aware that ethanol based fuels are more likely to cause fuel blockages, corrosion and other issues when compared to fuels which do not contain the product. I therefore :-

Check fuel filler o-rings and tank breather systems for defects which could allow rain water to enter the fuel fill or breather circuits.

Consider the effect of condensation forming on inner fuel tank walls, especially if a tank is not kept full.

Consider the environment in which the machinery has been stored and used.

Consider the effect of use of E10 bio fuel which contains ethanol and tends to cause water pollution issues in tanks, flexi fuel lines, pumps, filters, carburettors, injection components and fuel fired heater units.

When I was operating my marine repair and maintenance business, I would encourage my customers to regularly dose their boat fuel tanks with fuel dryer additive. This can be found at most motoring stores for around £6 a bottle. The dryer allows water molecules to combine with fuel and burn in the normal combustion process without eroding components or causing the side effect of rapid carbonisation of otherwise serviceable parts. This type of product may be used in ethanol fuels as a preventative additive.

The fuel heater on my boat is particularly sensitive to "wet" fuel. Use of an ethanol fuel is not an option as decreased reliability occurs. The use of a dryer additive conditions fuel and allows the burner to reliably combust fuel with a bright bunsen blue flame for an extended period between clean out services. A blue flame without yellow flecks indicates a chemically correct and optimized 13 parts of air/ 1 part of fuel mixture is being burned. In turn, that also indicates that the fuel is not "wet" and the heater burner will stay clear of carbon for an extended length of time before needing a decoke. Critical parts are less likely to erode and the possibility of sludging and gumming is reduced.

The same theory of combustion is relevant to piston engine cars, boats, trains, cranes or planes etc. Gas turbine engines also operate on the same principles of combustion.

If "wet" fuel is present, flecks of yellow or orange can be seen in the burner. That indicates that water droplets are present in the fuel. Continued use of my heater in that state leads to a rapid build up of carbon in the burner and combustion chamber. The exhaust smoke then becomes black due to incomplete combustion, the fuel air ratio may fall to 8 parts of air/ 1 part of fuel. Below 8/1, the nitrogen in the atmosphere extinguishes the flame. This is known as a "rich cut" and is the same effect as over choking a car engine when cold and which stops an engine running for the same reason.

Water accumulation in petrol powered aircraft fuel tanks is also a well known issue. Look under the wing tanks on a Piper Cherokee for instance and you will notice a fuel drain valve fitted. This is known as a "Curtis valve". Watch that aircraft being fuelled and prepared for flight and you will see the pilot take a glass container and draw off a sample of fuel. He will then let it stand for a minute or so. He is looking to spot clear water sitting beneath coloured aviation fuel. Excessive quantities of water evident may require investigation before the aircraft is allowed to fly.

Aircraft engineers are schooled in regard to regulations and the need to used aviation quality fuels for aircraft flying at elevated altitudes. Ordinary road going common pump fuel is to my recollection outlawed in this country due to its propensity to cause an increased chance of carburettor icing under certain atmospheric conditions and temperatures. This is the reason why a light aircraft is fitted with a carburettor heater which is used prior to an aircraft taking off and during landing manoeuvres. Failure to keep a carburettor clear of icing may cause and engine to cut with disastrous results. It is unlikely that ethanol E10 type fuels would ever be used in an aviation environment due to their tenancy towards water retention and precipitation.

Further information on this subject can be found by typing "ethanolfuelproblems" into your search engine.

Mike

[david340]

On the subject of the AED manual conversion - this still relies on the remainder of the AED working correctly - the conversion operates the AED by forcing the plungers from the cams - mine has a David Manners kit - it runs a little rough on choke but always fires firts time. The situation is that the AED needs to be otherwise healthy and the conversion will not solve that side of things.

I agree this is a weak excuse from the supplier !!!