Rear Suspension Wishbones

[jeff1954]

OK Thank's for that Mike. What i'll probably do when re tightening is jack the arm at the hub up so the car just starts to lift off the axle stand then do them all up. I think there is a bit of confusion on this issue as I am doing one side at a time and you are referring to both sides. Also i'm not conversant with the bush names RG etc

Jeff

[jeff1954]

Mike I have sourced two complete wishbones on eBay but they originate from China. Will they be any good.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

I see no reason why not. They might turn up as SC or possibly Lemforda manufactured.

Fitting new is the best answer unless you have the heavy extraction gear to cope with overhauling worn wishbones.....The grunt needed for DIY fitting replacement bushes should not be underestimated.

Mike

[jeff1954]

Hi Mike If I go down the rout of fitting new bushes myself I would have to buy a kit to do it between £70.00_£80.00 from eBay. Then I need the bushes for the rear bottom track control arms/wishbones both sides that is six bushes in total. The problem is, is that there are so many bushes advertised on eBay I can't work out which ones I need. I don't want sporty ones I just want good quality ones. Any ideas where I could get them from. This is the reason I was looking at buying complete wishbones but I'm getting conflicting views about them. I also understand that if I bought the tool I would have it for future jobs.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

The bushes you require are the RG109 type from Racing Green Cars or Neville Anderson at North East Jaguar Spares.These are after-market bushes which Jaguar do not supply preferring to supply only new wishbone arms complete. Doing that means they can sting you for more money!

You do not need to worry about the different grades of OTHER bushes on the car. The bushes fitted to two of the three bushes in the lower rear wishbones are COMPLETELY different from any other bush on the car. No debate, thats it! If you buy the RG109 that is all you need to do. Fit nothing else. Forget the misguided notion that there are hard or soft grades. They don`t exist. The RG109 is a tube with a ball fitted in the middle. The tube runs in a solid nylon or Teflon fully surrounding bearing. It is a hard bush and there is absolutely no compliance softening built into it.

See my detailed posts on fitting RG109 bushes in either S-type or X350 suspension sections of this site. All the info is there complete with information and images of how to fit them. If you read those threads you will have no difficulty understanding how these particular bushes work or how to change them.

If you buy a push mandrel set from eBay, you MUST ensure the kit includes a 44mm mandrel. The best fitting method though is to buy a 44mm hole saw from Wickes and grind the teeth off. I would only use a bench press for this job. Trying to get a G-clamp, a 44mm mandrel and a receiver mandrel together as a hand full of tools could be a nightmare. My advice is to get a ten ton press, a 44mm hole saw and a receiver mandrel and have done with it. Otherwise just buy new complete wishbones and make life easy for yourself. Why struggle when you don`t have to.

Mike

[jeff1954]

OK Mike Thanks for that.The tool I have seen on eBay looks quite sturdy, as it is for cars vans and HGV use and now you've explained about the bushes and where to get them from I might re place them myself. I do have a vice etc to hold the wishbone whilst I push/pull the bushes, and like I say I've got the tool to do any other bushes that might need replacing in the future. The car is now about 15 years old and covered 80 K and these are the first bushes that need replacing, so I would imagine others are coming to the end of there life.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

If you use a vice, it will need a jaw opening of at least eight inches. You need to cater for the depth of the wishbone register plus a receiver mandrel one side, plus the length of the pusher mandrel. You would need to support the weight of the large wishbone and then control the two mandrels...all whilst it is on one side. Then you would need to keep all parts and mandrels absolutely square. If any of the components slip, the whole lot will land on your feet....probably several times! This is not what I would do. I can`t over emphasis that you need the right tools for the job. This job verges on industrial on complexity and weight. Its a bigger job than you might think and you need powerful gear. Its hard enough with a vertical standing bench press rather than as a "have a go and hope" attempt using inappropriate and sub standard fitting gear.

This illustrated link shows what is required to change these bushes. Please look at the equipment I found necessary to acquire in order to do this job safely and efficiently. I had to shell out for around £500 worth of equipment to do this job for any hope of consistency. Please understand the forces generated and the need to do this job right first time and without accidents occurring.viewtopic.php?f=200&t=9223

Mike

[jeff1954]

Thank's for the link Mike I have actually seen that after scrolling through all your other post's on the subject, but again thank's. The thing I mentioned about the vice in the other post was not to use it as a compression device but to hold the arm in position so so I could use the tool I mentioned off eBay. I would like to show it to you but I don't know how to get the link from eBay on to here. It consists of three screwed rods of different dia and 25/32 different mandrels depending on which kit you buy. However I might just bite the bullet and buy the complete arms for about £85.00 each inc postage.

I am as you are probably aware an ex mechanic and do more or less all my own repairs but on this issue of bushes there is so much conflicting advice and views that it's got my head spinning somewhat. The tool would be handy for other jobs but as you said in one of your posts why make work for yourself. Anyway thank's as always for your input it's much appreciated.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

I have one of the kits you mention, Jeff. Its almost a mandatory purchase as the larger mandrels will be needed as a receiver pot as the old bush is pushed screaming out of the arm. Use loads of WD during extraction. The best tool for bush fitting and removal remains a 44mm bi-metal hole saw with the teeth ground off. These saws are of thin wall construction, fit down a wishbone register well and the thin wall avoids damaging the moving parts and grease seals in the bush...it is far better than any other normal bush mandrel. I won`t use anything else.

The best tip I can give for fitting new bushes is to use waterproof grease as a lubricant, get the bush in dead square to the arm register and perhaps file an improved lead on the bush to help engagement. Before you fit the bushes, put them in the freezer overnight and only get one bush out immediately before fitting is envisaged. Keep the others in the freezer until needed. At the same time plunge the wishbone register into a bucket of the hottest water you can get. Then use expansion of the arm and contraction of the bush to help fitment. Work fast and accurately before both the bush and the register normalize in temperature. That helps greatly.

Let`s put this matter in true perspective because, seriously, it is NOT rocket science. Jaguar refused to supply new bushes for this particular wishbone due to their unfounded fear that a wishbone might crack during fitting. Thats complete balls! If this was the case, why do they supply bushes for all the other suspension components? Only when Racing Green Cars and Neville Anderson at NE Jag Spares started supplying these patent bushes from the after-market did the situation change. That fact was a best kept secret and I only found out about those supply possibilities from JEC member, Derek Gibson in Ireland.

Around March 2010, Nigel published my article on fitting RG109 bushes. This broke totally new ground and no one had ever produced anything like this almost definitive article. A week after the magazine was sent out, the first X350 Seminar took place with David Marks reacting very positively to that article. Young Jenner phoned me when the Seminar finished and said my article was well received by David and that I was to consider myself as "Mr Magic". I knew at that point I`d hit the right spot.

Things moved on and I attended an S-type Seminar. David Marks again held court. He informed delegates that he had found it difficult to tell customers that they perhaps had two lower rear arms needing replacement. At that time each arm cost and eye watering £764 plus VAT from Jaguar. On top of that, any fitting garage would perhaps charge four hours labour for replacing two arms...plus VAT again. It was quite easy for a complete repair to touch a £2000 invoice. David continued by saying that as a result of my article he was now fitting RG109 bushes to his customers cars for a cost of £30 per bush, plus four hours labour and VAT. I was pleased to receive thanks for bringing this bush issue right out into the open and zeroing the mystery on the subject.

I went much further with the bush changing issue and bought a threaded rod mandrel set from eBay and stumped up for a massive electro/hydraulic bench press. This press £500 was again bought via eBay, was a monster and somehow had to be transported from the seller in Manchester to Fareham. The carrier companies refused to move the thing because it couldn`t be palletised and was in a plywood box of dimensions resembling a coffin. It couldn`t be stood on end due to instability. I was about to remove the rear seat in the S-type to enable moving the press myself in individual pieces when a friend managed to arrange for the thing to be brought down to Portsmouth in a Transit van. That was another £80 but money well spent. Set up in the wheel house of my motor boat on the salt marsh creek at Fareham, this huge press created enormous interest and curiosity. When floating, the boat would lean to one side due to the press weight of at least a quarter of a ton! It was instantly named "Brutus"!! Believe me, I wasn`t buggering about and was determined to find an easy way to change these patent RG109 bushes which are unique to S-type, X350, XF and also the XK8. I got the right tools for the job and used my industrial experience to make things happen. Seemingly, no one else around had ever tackled this subject.

I now estimate that I`ve changed at least thirty full sets of RG109 bushes since the press was acquired. It provided up to thirty tons of pressure over one square inch of surface area if needed. No bush ever refused to be shifted by Brutus although pressure used seldom exceeded seven tons. That said, the wishbone arm and mandrels could sometimes slip under pressure and the whole pile of mandrels, bushes and wishbone arms could fly in all directions. I got used to wearing industrial steel plated boots when using this press and often hid in the toilet compartment of the boat once I saw five tons appear on the press pressure gauge. ONLY EXPERIENCED operators should use this type of equipment.

Eventually, I got bush changing to the correct insert dimensions down to a fine art. One of the local Jaguar Independent garages would sub his wishbone bush fitting work out to me as he lacked the patience or interest to do it himself. On one occasion we had five JEC members Jags on blocks in the marina car park at one time. This included X350, S-type and XF models. The wrecking crew demolished the suspensions and the piles of wishbones were brought down to me on the boat in a marina pontoon trolley. We didn`t care which wishbones fitted each different car. They were all the same parts. They crew delivered the wishbones to the boat and I bashed the bushes out and replaced them. I`d then phone up to the car park guys saying another set were ready. They would then bring down another load for me. Doing the five cars took us a day and a half. At the end we had learned a lot. Blackened, filthy, tired, thirsty and hungry we decamped to the pub for the evening. Never has so much beer been drunk by so few....

As a £100 bet, I said I could remove and fit a new bush inside five minutes to correct insert dimensions. I was told I would never do it....I did so in four minutes and forty eight seconds...... so we drank some more beer on the collection of £20 notes collected from those present. In general, with frozen down bushes and hot water heated arms, a bush can usually be fitted correctly and safely in about ten minutes. Quality of fitting is of course vastly more important than the time taken. Rushing is not necessary unless someone is having a bet with you!!

Mike

[jeff1954]

Great account Mike of the topic in question and comical in parts to. I've got this image in my mind of you in the said loo with your hands over your ears with a grimish on your face waiting for a loud bang I have however today sent off for the ones I mentioned from eBay. For the price and time and effort saved I don't think I can go wrong. I only do between three to four thousand miles a year (probably not even that this year because of the dreaded virus) so even if they are not the top notch quality bushes in them they will no doubt last me a good few years.
I will certainly have a play around with the old wishbones in time to change the bushes.

Jeff

[J44EAG]

A wise decision, Jeff.

I soon realized that changing those particular bushes was little different to changing any other bush on any car. The principles were the same. Given the right size and type of equipment needed makes it possible provided you have access to it. That said though, the main issue is getting those bushes out, then inserting two new bushes and maintaining the 281mm spacing between the inner ends of the compression tubes. If that is not correct, the wishbone won`t fit back into the car. In other words you must achieve that clearance with an accuracy of about a millimetre at the very largest dimension.

On the face of it, the job looks and sounds easy. In practice, it can be very different. The key to success is having the powerful push gear to shove bushes back and forth in the registers with total ease. If anything picks up or sticks during fitment you can suddenly have a significant problem. Pushing on the bush must be on the outer case only and any mandrel must avoid damaging the grease gaiters and the pressure must at all times NOT be placed on the compression tube. If that happens the tube and ball piles into the nylon lining and you wreck the bush before you even have it inserted. At £30 a pop, you don`t want many failures! That is where the modified thin wall 44mm hole saw comes into its own. It could almost have been made for the job. There isn`t a better tool in existence than that hole saw!!

Getting these bushes in an out for most people would be a nightmare. Suddenly the magnitude of the job dashes up behind you. It didn`t take me long to realise that I either invested fairly heavily on suitable tooling or went the probably more cost effective route of complete arm changing. Most people won`t shell out the best part of £750 just to overhaul two arms so new items represent the better option. Once I had the press, a mandrel set, had made my jig and acquired other tools, I realised I could earn myself a few quid to claw back the tooling costs. Even after overhauling around thirty sets of wishbones, I doubt whether I`ve recovered the costs of tooling up for the procedure. I got in deep and just had to keep going. That seemed like a good idea at the time. Bush changing is only really viable if you have a run of work to recover those tooling costs. If not, then buying complete new arms is a much less hassle filled option if you are just replacing defective parts on just one car.

Your impression of me hiding in the ships heads whilst loading up the press is quite accurate. I felt as if I was working in a destructive test facility. The same removal methods are also used to change X350, S-type or XF lower front ball joints and wheel bearing cartridges. The work is heavy, brutal, dirty and exhausting. Its OK when you are younger but I found the work arduous and unfunny the older I became. All I can do is recommend the easiest option on each occasion and leave the heavy stuff to a well equipped garage and technicians that are built like gorillas!

Mike

[jeff1954]

As you say Mike The wishbones used to be silly money, someone always try's to get round the problem as you did by trying re bushing therefore creating the after market industry which is good for us all. I suppose if one has pots of money swirling around the main agent would be your supplier of choice,but as our cars get older the main no longer stock the parts, after market is sometimes the only option. Having said that I have read that some OE parts can come from places like (dare I say it) China or as Mr Trump puts it CHINA Anyway when the afore mentioned wishbones reach me and I have fitted them I shall report in

Jeff

[Popsjag]

Replaced all bushes in rear lower wishbones (with original bushes after finding Polybush ones were far too stiff and made driving downright dangerous). Also replaced stabilising links and anti-roll bar drop links (rear) as they were all totally shot as well.

All parts replaced, copying dimensions of old parts, and the handling was still a bit twitchy so had the tracking done.

Surprising the difference between 'before' and 'after'!

[J44EAG]

A good result, Steve.

I know you inserted Powerflex bushes at the hub carrier and rear subframe locastion at one point before reverting to the aftermarket direct OE type replacement RG109 type from Racing Green Cars.

I make this comment for everyone to see here. DO NOT USE Powerflex in those two locations on S-type, XF or X350. They are completely unsuitable as the have no axial movement to permit rear toe and adjustment via the long radius rods. RG109 ONLY in the lower rear wishbones. There is and cannot be any argument about this. The Powerflex parts are completely unsuitable for the job. I`ve spoken to Powerflex about this but they still list them.

Mike