Buying an X350 wth paint blisters - Fixable or Show Stopper?

[Flyerman]

Would appreciate some advice.

Considering trading in my XJ8 for a 2003 4.2L SE but it has a few paint blister eruptions. Small patch on rear edge of boot lid - patch about the size of half a beer mat on boot lid surface near rear window edge - smaller patch about size of 2p coin surface of driver's door about 6 ins in from rear edge. I understand that this is not "traditional" corrosion because of the aluminium body; if it was I wouldn't touch car with a barge pole. But how seriously should I treat this?

For me, a large part of the pleasure of owning a Jag is knowing that she looks the best she can be, so I know I could not live with these blemishes without getting them professionally done.

How difficult / costly would that be? Paint is metallic finish British Racing Green.

Have read the very useful Forum Buyers' Guide , but would greatly appreciate any additional advice on the above, plus any other tips?

Many thanks

[robv12]

mmm, early 350's suffered from the paint not aderhering to body shell causing lifting and spidering if the paint, if left unattended this then leaves the bare alloy to corrode, ask Mike Kennedy J44EAG about corrosion in alloys, he will tell you the whole truth

Have a look back a couple of issues of the magazine at Nigel Thorleys car after 160k miles and the body work that car went through, wings, off , doors off, most of Nigels problems were caused by the close fit of the rubber seals rubbing the paint away and allowing corrosion to start

Traditional problem areas are as you say the boot lid by the rear window, door bottoms and corners

These can all be repaired but at cost and you need some one with experience of working with aluminium, I had my 350 done a couple of years ago by a very good guy, the car looked a million dollars when it was ll done, but it was not cheap

with 350 prices tumbling, and I mean tumbling, they are in free fall, I would be inclined to do one of two things, be brutal with this seller and haggle hard due to the work needing done, or look for another car

if you want to pm me or even post here, some more details of the car you are considering, i would be happy to give you a ball park valuation, mileage, owners, history, the usual stuff, the more you provide the easier it is to value

[robv12]

this post prompted me to have a look at 350 prices again

I found these four at the lower end of the market starting at £3250 or best offer

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-XJ6-SE ... 416221eeab

http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... ?logcode=p

and

http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... ?logcode=p

and then this one with sensible miles

http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified ... ?logcode=p

all sub £4K, along with many more sub £4k cars, and these are dealer prices, so take out the profit, just think what they paid for them, an absolute bargain buy imo, a huge amount of car for your cash, they also stand the miles very very well , my own 53 plate 3.0 had done 135K miles and now lives with it's new owner in Finland racking up 1000 miles a week

buy carefully and a 350 is a great car, but haggle hard with the seller

[J44EAG]

Give me time, Rob. I`m still young and can get even better.

I want to give this tread time to develop and let others have a say before I add comments. BB and dh dove also having aircraft industry knowledge and experience are also well qualified to make comments on aluminium corrosion.

Believe me when I say it is a complex subject when set along side the issues of steel corrosion. Concepts, metallurgy and treatments are totally different.

Let me gather my thoughts, links and previous correspondence between myself, Nigel, Barry and other co-ordinators before I sound off. If I pile into this subject right now, I`m likely to end up with a post three miles long..........

I`ll come back to this thread in a while if I may please.

Mike

[barrywi]

My advice would be to look around. Why buy a car with bodywork problems if you can find one without. If it was less than five years old then Jaguar should ( may) take an interest and fix it under warranty. My main worry would be that if parts of the car you can see are corroding and you get them fixed, what if there are bits that you cannot see that just get left? There are some cars out there with no corrosion like mine( I am not gloating) but when I bought mine I was not in the JEC and knew absolutely nothing about the model apart from trim types, colours and wheels sizes. I would take your time read everything about the car you can and then start looking. As Rob says, though quite a rare car on the road, there are enough about for you to find the right specification, colour and engine.
I would want at least £1500 off the book price if there was significant corrosion on a 350 and if the seller offers to fix it , it MUST be done properly otherwise it will return.
Looking at these prices I wonder why I paid over £10000 for my wife's Fiesta. I could have got her three X-350s for the same price. She wanted something small for parking though! Other cars should move out of the way for a Jaguar, shouldn't they?

[J44EAG]

Here is your homework for tonight.

These links are good on the subject of aluminium corrosion. As you will see, the issues of rotting aluminium are rather more complex than that of steel corrosion, hence my just getting my head together on the subject before coming back to the subject.

Most people will have a reasonable understanding of what makes steel corrode. Aluminium is another matter and gaining a similar and true understanding of the subject requires a reader with limited knowledge to perhaps clear his mind of preconceived ideas and begin to study the subject from a new base position. A degree of "vertical and horizontal" thinking helps to grasp the concept of alloyed metallurgical micro structures and an understanding of the Galvanic Scale is something of a prerequisite.

Steel is one type of structural construction material. Aluminium likewise. The only thing they have in common is that they are commonly both known as metal. Construction, preparation, protection, finishing and repair methods for steel and aluminium structures are also very different with rather tighter and more stringent needs. The same goes for in service maintenance and repair.

Aluminium has been a common material in the aircraft and marine industries for years. Reasons for breakdown or failure of the material and finish coatings are well known in those industries. Within the vehicle industry, that knowledge is more limited and the causes and effects of degradation of aluminium is less well understood. A certain mystique surrounds the subject of aluminium bodied road vehicles and with that aspects of confusion and in some cased wild guess type assumptions abound. These links will I hope clarify typical aluminium issues and enable those wishing to repair their cars have a better understanding of the subject and of remedial options.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... Og&cad=rja

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... uQ&cad=rja

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... Kw&cad=rja You may get a re-direct on this link.

These headings provide some insight into the complexity and variables of aluminium as a constructional material. That being the case, I`ve resisted taking the subject beyond an initial experimental draft for publication in our magazine. I feel the subject may just be too abstract to make good reading material. I did wonder about suitability of my article "The problem with oil" for similar reasons. Apart from Paul Sinnott who read that article in his bath and fell asleep, no one else muttered a dicky as to whether they enjoyed or understood the text. I would expect an article on aluminium might induce similar boredom!

Happy reading.

Mike

[J44EAG]

This is an old thread but worth re-visiting five years on.

Now owning an X350 for around twenty months, it has been the subject of a massive amount of normal servicing maintenance, deep strip overhaul and intensive modification. I know my way around this model quite well now. However, the other day I came across the first signs of corrosion. Not much. Just a two inch high by 2/4 inch wide paint blister. Its location was just above the sill at the rear of the wheel arch on the offside front wing. Close investigation found the under-lying metal to be sound and un-perforated.

I grabbed my little Proxxon long neck sanding grinder which I normally use for sanding down gel coat repairs on boats. This lovely little tool can be fitted with a number of attachments including a backing pad suitable for use with two inch sanding discs. A couple of minutes work with the tool using a P80 Velcro backed sanding disc had the corroded bubbled paint removed to leave bright shiny metal with no pin holing or other defects. Edges of the eaten into paintwork were hand sanded with P320 flower paper followed by another go with P800. (Do NOT use Wet and Dry paper on bare aluminium) The bare metal and surrounding paint then receoved a doule wipe session with panel wipe de-greaser. I then sprayed four coats of etch primer at ten minut intervals onto the opened up metal, allowing the spray paint to lap over the original flatted paint by two inches all round. I left it at that to set up and dry off over night.

Early next day, I wet flatted the primer with P800 followed by P1200 grade W&D paper. Excess primer can be rubbed off the panel to just leave primer on the previously bare aluminium and the first inch or so of over-lap onto the flatted back area of the original panel finish. Another panel wipe session took place allowing the solvent to flash off to atmosphere before proceeding further. My car is PEF Midnight Pearl which is black to most of us. I draw aerosol Holts paint from Halfords which is specially brewed whilst you wait. The cost for a can is around £16 retail. Colour match is quite excellent and has even allowed me to perform "blow in" repairs in the middle of a panel with only minimal difference in paint match being noted. At fifteen minute intervals, I sprayed four colour coats onto the repair and again allowed the paint to extend a couple of inches over the primed repair and onto the old paint finish.

Having let the coulour coat dry in the sun, it was wet flatted with P120 W&D paper, washed down with water and panel wiped. Four clear coats were sprayed onto the repair again allowing overlap of the clear coat onto the original finish. The work was left to cook in the sun and I returned to the job next day. The gloss coat was wet flatted with P800. P1200 and P1500 Wet and Dry paper before being polished up with Farracla Fast Cut rubbing compound. I then used a finer rubbing compound to polish to a fine finish, blend new paint into the old and promote a finished job. A coat of Autoglym polish over the work and the job was done. Inditiquishable from original finish and blended into the old paint, its a perfect job. It just shows what can be achieved in a dusty Marina car park!

The standard of the job is always in direct proportion to time spent, methodology and ones own level of skill and experience. Don`t expect to get perfection straight from a spray can. Much flatting and polishing has to be done before you get a top dollar job. Special care must be taken at prep stage and ensure ALL corrosive deposits are removed prior to application of the first primer coat. DO NOT use a steel wire brush of any type on aluminium. Doing so will cause a return of the previous corrosive issues. 100% good paintwork is possible but it takes is care, time and patience.

Mike

[barrywi]

Painting is expensive especially if there is more than one panel involved. There is also the chance that new paint does not quite match old ,sometimes depending on the angle you look at the car. As Rob says look around there are plenty others available. Also thanks to Rob for saying the prices are in freefall when I want to sell mine! I may as well keep my immaculate 39000 mile diesel and use it for carrying junk like Mike does. A Labour government( god help us) will probably stick 50p a litre on diesel and make us all ride bikes.
PPB over ,I am not convinced the corrosion is age related but a bit more random ,probably due to poor preparation. Mine is one of the last pre facelift models (2007) and has no corrosion at all. I know of later cars with the problem.

[J44EAG]

Much of the issue is to do with the bending process which panel work endures as it is stamped out from raw sheet and then bent to shape. This imparts a compresive work hardening to the material which upsets the molecular balance of the affected material area. Areas such as the tight fold over of the material around a boot lip frame or in this case found on my own car where the metal was sharply formed around a 90 degree turn, can prevoke the issue. In the aircraft industry, this well known phenomina is known as stress corrosion. The emphasis is on the word "stress" which can become a destructive issue. Fortunately, it is often not that difficult to correct. The methodology and skill levels needed for correction are in the majority of cases rather unknown outside that of the aerospace industry so within the motor industry, repairs are often regarded as some type of ogre mystery! Some people think that DIY ali repairs are impossible and that doing such work will cause a car to blow up in your face! No so. A PhD in bomb disposal is not required!!

The locked up internal stresses imposed on the grain boundaries of the amalgamated alloy composition of boxite, copper and zinc, cause the micro structure to become stretched and deformed. The result is that mis-alignment of the constituant metal core causes grain boundaries to become "stressed" and corrosion can result. I`ve seen classic stress corrosion of a wing spar joiner made from high zinc content Seven thousand Series aluminium, corrode from the inside to the outside surfaces. All this was part of my Licenced Aircraft Engineers course sylibus. None of these issues are unknown or regarded as unexpected. It`s just the at generally the auto industry frequently does not fully understand working with aluminium. That`s down to training and knowledge.

Stress corrosion as a subject and science is rather fickle. There are so many variables in the stamping and forming process not to mention what occurs when sheet alloy is hot rolled and formed in a molton state before being fed in semi-liquid form through high pressure rollers. Industry is aware that mixing alloy constituants evenly is problematical. Keeping molton metal evenly mixed in a white hot crucible is not easy and inevitably there will always be cases where poor mixing can cause problems within a component at a later time. The situation worsens as sheet metal cools even under the most stringent of heat treatment processes. As metal cools, constituant grains of differing metals are forced together under the hot rolling proceedures. In a cold state, boxite, copper and zinc make most unhappy bedfellows and potentially corrosion begins before the metal is even cool. Where areas of poorly mixed metal is concentrated, there possibly lays an area which may become more corrosion prone in the future than and area of metal immediately adjacent to it. Inevitably traces of carbon may also find its way into alloyed aluminium. That is guaranteed to cause corrosion at a later date.

Porr paint prep will have little effect on corrosive issues which with aluminium tend to burst out from the core of the metal to the outside blowing paint of in bubbles and allowing salt to add to aluminium corrosion issues. Por paint prep is likely to do little more that cause the paint to part company from the metal. Ali corrosion is in the vast majority of cases caused by internal metalogical issues rather than paint defects. Salts cause the apparent corrosion to seemingly exacibate visual issues. With the corrosive by-product removed, use of the right repair materials and processes having been applied, corrosion is unlikely to appear again on decently reworked areas.

Fortunately, I do understand the problems and can deal with them. No time bombs, no issues, nothing new, no black art and no tears. Google aluminium corrosion to learn more.

Mike

[ChrisDixon]

Mike, exhuming this thread as I am attracted to the idea of running a 350, your guide and comments here are most helpful. Generally the 350 alloy issue gets discussed in the context of the rivets and reaction with steel rather than ally corrosion per se. Received wisdom seems to be that the 350 is a much better option than a contemporary S Type or XK because "they don't rust". I'm used to paint flake having owned Range Rovers and LR Discoveries, but panel corrosion isn't an issue on those cars, hence I wouldn't expect this on a 350. So is it "just" a cosmetic issue? If not, it would seem there will be some merit in a prospective purchaser considering one of the Japanese imports discussed elsewhere. If not, it would remove some of the perceived advantage over an XK, or even an early XF? If so (purists look away now), would buying a scabby car that was mechanically sound and giving it a "wrap" be an economic solution to the cosmetic issue? Regards, Chris.

[barrywi]

Just to stir up the cooking pot a bit...
I have a 2007 Diesel Sovereign with 38000 miles on the clock which I have owned since it was three years old. It had NO corrosion issues either panel or rivet when I bought it and it still has none after eight years of ownership. It was featured in the magazine before Mike took over the ownership of the X350 pages. So my point is that not all 350's inevitably get the aluminium corrosion panel flaking and even though the rivets are steel I am not aware of that being a problem. There may be some scabby 350's around for sale to avoid if possible. Mine could be for sale ( but only for the right price) but if you want a 600 bhp XJR ( like Mike!!) do look elsewhere.
I am not convinced that the aluminium corrosion automatically comes with age as with steel cars but is due to some poor preparation when originally painted.
Fantastic car , fast enough ( for me anyway) due to lightness ,and capable of 40+ mpg on longer runs.

[J44EAG]

Corrosion is a combination of many factors. I learned that in the aircraft industry.

Original panel preparation and quality of the base core material start the issue. Variables at that point begin any potential issue.

Then there is the surface preparation, the volume and quality of the etch primer and the micronic thickness of the coats applied. Any slight voids or thin areas of paint reduce the protective properties of the finish to resist later attack by predominantly salts but also acids and other common destructive chemical matter. The above also applies to the eventual volume of paint top coat finishing materials. Some cars may be better finished than others. That is a production variable.

Then there is the matter of how well the finish is kept up by a number of successive owners. A car that is kept clean, dry, well protected by polish and away from winter ravages is likely to survive without corrosion issues than one that operates in Jennerland! Age, mileage, exposure to chemical contamination and age all take their toll. No two identical cars are ever even remotely similar after the first few weeks on the road. All operate under differing operating conditions and maintenance regimes. Once again, a considerable variance in condition regardless of age or mileage is likely to be found when sourcing not just a 350 but any vehicle.

All one can do to combat issues is to address those problems as quickly as possible as they are found. The X350/X358`s biggest enemy? In my experience, the quite disappointing visual condition of both front and rear steel sub-frames....nothing new for Jaguar. Look at the rampant corrosion found on even relatively new F-type models! Such a shame Jaguar don`t get a handle on the problem. Better sub-frame prep, more corrosion inhibiting primer and a lot more decent quality top coat paint would go a long way towards keeping owners happy. I can see the time when my X350 sub-frames will have to be removed, shot blasted and then re-finished properly if I wish to avoid my car ending up at Eurojag!

Mike K.

[barrywi]

Yes I agree with Mike re the non Alooominum parts of our 350/358 s. When I bought mine at 3 years old I got it up on ramps and had a good squirt around with Waxoyl and even just oil on the steel , keeping the oil obviously away from brakes and other inappropriate areas . My car has led a sheltered life I agree with it only getting wet on rare occasions and never going out on salty roads. Actually if there was any snow or ice about I would never get up my steep drive anyway, the traction on the 350's wide tyres is not good in these conditions.
I bought ,and have just sold a 1985 Mercedes 500SL after three years of limited use ,and though the floorpan under the car was remarkable in its lack of corrosion , I knew this could be a problem on these cars ,especially around the bulkhead . I had a good grovel around underneath and used a product that I think is very good. My Merc was not going to do many miles so I bought some Bilt Hamber Cavity Wax from their website . It comes in large aerosols and with a half metre thin plastic flexible tube which sprays at 360 degrees inside cavities. You just press the button and pull it backwards out of any hole you can find in box sections. It is much thinner than Waxoyl and really penetrates into the difficult to access areas. It works really well in cooler temperatures( 90 % of uk days!) and though the process would have been much quicker and easier if I had borrowed the use of a car lift, I did the job over a couple of hours. They do a thicker material similar to schutz but I only wanted a thin layer so that it could be removed easily. I used it with out the plastic tube over flat bodywork and with a WD40 type short tube to cover small areas like behind bumpers and on nuts and bolts. It never really went hard and even after a couple of years if I ran my finger under the Merc's wings it stuck to my finger. It is also easily removed from hands and paintwork with turps or white spirit. I think I used about ten large aerosols twice the length of WD40 tins( at least) and I think they cost around £15 a tin. Highly recommended though the new owner will reap the benefit now.
As a footnote , now at 71 and overweight I no longer " Grovel under Cars" or climb ladders!

[ChrisDixon]

Corrosion may be many things, but the main issue for car owners is rust/rot leading to structural weakness and MoT failure. This is amply illustrated by reference to X Types, XKs and X308s which rust, badly. Received wisdom is that X350s are a good buy because they don't rust in the structural sense. So in the context of this thread it seems that a buyer should avoid an X350 with paint blisters because they ought to be able to find another one without? Sound advice if you want the best looking car possible, but surely if a scabby one is a lot cheaper, and otherwise good, and you can live with the shame (or like Mike painstakingly correct the defects), they are a better bet for the money than a shiny XK with a rotten floor?

[barrywi]

Mike and I are different!
He likes modding , fixing and fiddling but it is too cold and I am too old for that.
If you want a car to admire and use sparingly then look for a good X350, there is not much difference between that and the update model which followed mine. The bare shell is lighter than the steel new mini they say, before they start loading all the leather and wood on board so it is quick and economical for its size. The 3 litre petrol and the 2.7 litre diesel are about the same power but the diesel has much more torque so is faster. The V8 petrols including the R are really fast but you lose the economy and road tax is dearer.
If you want to use the car for high mileage then a few blisters will not matter compared with the supermarket trolley dings you would get over its life. They will not cause an MOT failure, just make sure the rest of the car has been serviced properly. Whether you buy petrol or diesel may depend on who is buying the fuel. The diesel is best suited for high motorway miles and could average over 40 mpg or more , just avoid it if you do lots of short trips like me. I have always tried to give the car a blast every month to clear out the dreaded dpf filters which can clog around town.
The 350 series prices are getting lower and whether they will ever rise again is a matter of conjecture. The fact that they do not rust and are lighter gives them a big boost compared with previous steel bodied XJs I think.
Most will have done high mileages but you do see ones coming up like mine with low miles so just keep looking.