After the seminar and seeing Mike's expansion tank blown again, I decided it was time to remove the front stay bar to give access to the tank and wiper unit (making some ominous noises in the drive down and back).
So yesterday I spent 3 hours breaking and removing the 7 bolts, from previous gentle probing I knew the 2 drivers inner wing bolts were free, and both passenger wing ones would snap, but was surprised to see two in the centre snapped off after removing the wiper arms (plastic plugs out, nut off and a quick waggle), but I also scribbed a line across the two wiper drive spindles to ensure I put them on correctly.
The two wing bolts came out easily, drilled through the remains of the bolt starting with a 3mm and finished with a 6mm so that I had drilled out most of it and also one side of the bolt, then used a very small mole grip to turn and unscrew down the remains of it. Then cleaned it with a tap.
The centre ones were very aukward, they drilled through and twisted out OK, but snapped 4 drills and twisted my back, the remaining centre bolt came loose.
Day off today to rest my back, only resecured some carpets in the house to keep the boss happy, also removed the three bolts holding the wiper unit inplace when she wasn't looking, so I can look forward to fighting to removing the wiper unit and its compost tomorrow, photographing as I go.
Question please, my early expansion tanks took a bit different to the pictures I see on the internet suppliers and the one you held in your hand at the seminar Mike???? I'm assuming this tank has been replaced at some point in the past as the car has 95,500 miles on the clock, cap is still 120 Kpa.
I can see a multiplug and some wire loom at the back of the engine so assume this is the bit to protect from screen runoff, but can't see the top of the Passenger side Powertrain ECU plugs as expected??
Brian
Removing engine bay stay bar
Moderators:GJS-typeR, Montana5
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
Maybe I panicked a bit soon at the seminar, Brian. Remember I`ve seen this twice in eight years of S-type ownership. hence always travelling with a spare tank in the car! Call me paranoid? Yes, i am!!
There was certainly a puddle of fluid behind the OSF wheel which is indicative of a blown tank on the early cars. I do have a leak somewhere but I`m not now certain it is the tank. No fluid lost between Brum and Fareham 152 mile journey. Left under pressure overnight, absolutely no loss at all.
Believe me that when these tanks fail, you know all about it. The puddle just gets bigger each time you drive the car. Eventually, if left, whoosh, all over the floor.
What happens is that the poly tank material "dries out" externally. It is mounted immediately adjacent and above the exhaust down pipe on V6 and V8 models. Heat and pressure from the coolant finds the "dry out" flaw lines in the material and the next thing you find is dripping coolant behind the OSF wheel.
The shape of the tank is queer as a cote. Pics taken from different angles might be giving a misleading impression. Note also that pre face lift cars have the facelift tank fitted. That is the one that is fitted behind the radiator rather than being buried behind the OSF suspension turret mounting.
Those cross brace bolts can be very difficult. When my last tank was changed, we bolted the whole lot back up again using loads of copper grease. We even greased up the exposed threads which protrude into the void above the wheel arch liners. Hopefully this precaution will have been beneficial if and when I have to do another tank change job.
As regards viewing the Powertrain module plugs, the module fits through the bulkhead, can`t remember which side, but a big long socket attached to the engine wiring loom plugs into it. It is the same for V6 and V8 cars.
Three wheels on my wagon...........
Mike
There was certainly a puddle of fluid behind the OSF wheel which is indicative of a blown tank on the early cars. I do have a leak somewhere but I`m not now certain it is the tank. No fluid lost between Brum and Fareham 152 mile journey. Left under pressure overnight, absolutely no loss at all.
Believe me that when these tanks fail, you know all about it. The puddle just gets bigger each time you drive the car. Eventually, if left, whoosh, all over the floor.
What happens is that the poly tank material "dries out" externally. It is mounted immediately adjacent and above the exhaust down pipe on V6 and V8 models. Heat and pressure from the coolant finds the "dry out" flaw lines in the material and the next thing you find is dripping coolant behind the OSF wheel.
The shape of the tank is queer as a cote. Pics taken from different angles might be giving a misleading impression. Note also that pre face lift cars have the facelift tank fitted. That is the one that is fitted behind the radiator rather than being buried behind the OSF suspension turret mounting.
Those cross brace bolts can be very difficult. When my last tank was changed, we bolted the whole lot back up again using loads of copper grease. We even greased up the exposed threads which protrude into the void above the wheel arch liners. Hopefully this precaution will have been beneficial if and when I have to do another tank change job.
As regards viewing the Powertrain module plugs, the module fits through the bulkhead, can`t remember which side, but a big long socket attached to the engine wiring loom plugs into it. It is the same for V6 and V8 cars.
Three wheels on my wagon...........
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
Yesterday finally removed the wiper unit from the car after unbolting the motor and leaving it in the car.....for now. Stripped the unit down and found slight corrosion on the two spindles but the ball joints were fine. The mechanism was definitly starting to seize up, so now it is reassembled with graphite grease and ready to refit. Took the motor out but couldn't see any easy way to check the brushes, so will go back as is.
Today I was looking at the strange rubber boot that fits over the drivers side spindle and directs water through the inner wing to ground. This served no purpose as the alloy housing of the wiper unit was full of compost so nothing could drain away (should help the flowers grow). I really want to take the wheel arch liner out again to see where this rubber boot directs the rain water, but its so cold here, so may just use the camera for now. I'm being a bit nesh at present.
I also inspected the header tank and found no signs of discolouration, or cracks and in the main it is 'white' so is probably a replacement, but like you I'll find and carry a spare. I've a new fan belt to fit and will carry the old one as a spare as it looks OK but of unknown history!!!
Brian
Today I was looking at the strange rubber boot that fits over the drivers side spindle and directs water through the inner wing to ground. This served no purpose as the alloy housing of the wiper unit was full of compost so nothing could drain away (should help the flowers grow). I really want to take the wheel arch liner out again to see where this rubber boot directs the rain water, but its so cold here, so may just use the camera for now. I'm being a bit nesh at present.
I also inspected the header tank and found no signs of discolouration, or cracks and in the main it is 'white' so is probably a replacement, but like you I'll find and carry a spare. I've a new fan belt to fit and will carry the old one as a spare as it looks OK but of unknown history!!!
Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
Hi Brian,
Have been following the thread on this subject.
I thinlk you need a medal working out in this lousy weather!
Did you get round to reading my thread on this subect. I would suggest all S types require attention in this area at reasonably regular intervals for all the reasons highlighted.
Despite the inconvenience of having to remove the cowl in its entirety it is the only way of gaining access to service the whole area properly. I have seen it demonstrated where a small number of fixings have been removed and the plastic cover bent back to allow access to replace the pollen filter, a process that I really could not condone.
You say there were some ominous noises from the wiper assembly to/from Brum,since pulling it apart have you spotted anything?
I've noticed that Jaguar frequently use bolts/screws that are far to long and fitted dry, the exposed thread then corrodes. I suppose the answer is to chop the surplus off. I've used dome nuts in one or two places and the battery fixing bolt that protrudes out underneath I've put a bit of plastic tube on it.
I took the spindles out of a scrap wiper rail and had a job getting the circlips back in place- what did you find?
You mention the drivers side drain, what about the drain around the side of the pollen filter, I reckon if that drain blocks up the plenum chamber in which the pollen filter is housed will flood and overflow into the cabin , what do you think
Keep up the good work
P
Have been following the thread on this subject.
I thinlk you need a medal working out in this lousy weather!
Did you get round to reading my thread on this subect. I would suggest all S types require attention in this area at reasonably regular intervals for all the reasons highlighted.
Despite the inconvenience of having to remove the cowl in its entirety it is the only way of gaining access to service the whole area properly. I have seen it demonstrated where a small number of fixings have been removed and the plastic cover bent back to allow access to replace the pollen filter, a process that I really could not condone.
You say there were some ominous noises from the wiper assembly to/from Brum,since pulling it apart have you spotted anything?
I've noticed that Jaguar frequently use bolts/screws that are far to long and fitted dry, the exposed thread then corrodes. I suppose the answer is to chop the surplus off. I've used dome nuts in one or two places and the battery fixing bolt that protrudes out underneath I've put a bit of plastic tube on it.
I took the spindles out of a scrap wiper rail and had a job getting the circlips back in place- what did you find?
You mention the drivers side drain, what about the drain around the side of the pollen filter, I reckon if that drain blocks up the plenum chamber in which the pollen filter is housed will flood and overflow into the cabin , what do you think
Keep up the good work
P
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
Hi oldtimer, nice to see you at the seminar,
From David Marks sharp comment that 'you will be removing the wiper unit sooner or later and if you do it sooner it will only cost you labour rather than a motor later', or words to that effect, also having read your description of how you did it, I found it surprisingly easy, awkward yes but still easy as I have a well equiped workshop and mine and my dads tools.
The drainage duct on the drivers side is now clear as I carefully proddled and hoovered the compost out before fitting it all back this morning (rather that remove the wheel and wing liner).
I used the camera on the passenger side below the accomodation filter and hoovered everything I could find but it seems clear enough to drain away. Previously I removed all the fixing and carefully replaced the filter by lifting up the big plastic cover, but it was warmer then and I would be wary of the plastic cracking in this temperature.
I don't like the open top to the cable duct on the back of the head (again the loom is not wrapped!!!), so I'll copy Mike's 'elegant' rain deflector idea.
I reconnected the battery (should have removed the alarm codes again!) and ran the wipers before refitting the arms and wiper blades and checked the sweep of them. There is some slack in the spindles which allows a bit more or less sweep than when new and from a slight mark on the windscreen surround I suspect the knock I heard in the rain was the wiper touching this surround (I may bend the wiper arm a little to alleviate this as the wiper moves further with water on the screen).
Out of the 8 silly press studs holding the plastic to the staybar I only have 4 good ones and I've found 2 of a different type that may do the job, so I need to see what I can get to resecure this. It seems warmer in the garage now the snow is on the ground!! Fan belt and fuel filter next, and 'North East Jaguar Spares' looks the best place sofar to get a spare expansion tank, atleast it looks the correct shape and has the kinky hose on it (ebay has some LH tanks that are a mirror image of ours?).
Brian
From David Marks sharp comment that 'you will be removing the wiper unit sooner or later and if you do it sooner it will only cost you labour rather than a motor later', or words to that effect, also having read your description of how you did it, I found it surprisingly easy, awkward yes but still easy as I have a well equiped workshop and mine and my dads tools.
The drainage duct on the drivers side is now clear as I carefully proddled and hoovered the compost out before fitting it all back this morning (rather that remove the wheel and wing liner).
I used the camera on the passenger side below the accomodation filter and hoovered everything I could find but it seems clear enough to drain away. Previously I removed all the fixing and carefully replaced the filter by lifting up the big plastic cover, but it was warmer then and I would be wary of the plastic cracking in this temperature.
I don't like the open top to the cable duct on the back of the head (again the loom is not wrapped!!!), so I'll copy Mike's 'elegant' rain deflector idea.
I reconnected the battery (should have removed the alarm codes again!) and ran the wipers before refitting the arms and wiper blades and checked the sweep of them. There is some slack in the spindles which allows a bit more or less sweep than when new and from a slight mark on the windscreen surround I suspect the knock I heard in the rain was the wiper touching this surround (I may bend the wiper arm a little to alleviate this as the wiper moves further with water on the screen).
Out of the 8 silly press studs holding the plastic to the staybar I only have 4 good ones and I've found 2 of a different type that may do the job, so I need to see what I can get to resecure this. It seems warmer in the garage now the snow is on the ground!! Fan belt and fuel filter next, and 'North East Jaguar Spares' looks the best place sofar to get a spare expansion tank, atleast it looks the correct shape and has the kinky hose on it (ebay has some LH tanks that are a mirror image of ours?).
Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
The header tank is one of Neville`s stock genuine items, Brian. His prices are very competitive.
Press studs for the brace bar are easily available on ebay.
I had a windscreen wiper "knock" on one occasion. Turned out to be a new complete arm hitting the trailing edge of the bonnet. A careful flattening profile wise of the arm cured the problem and made it lay flatter to the screen.
It is incredible how much dead vegetation builds up in the wiper motor/ cabin filter void. Definately worth keeping under control.
Mike
Press studs for the brace bar are easily available on ebay.
I had a windscreen wiper "knock" on one occasion. Turned out to be a new complete arm hitting the trailing edge of the bonnet. A careful flattening profile wise of the arm cured the problem and made it lay flatter to the screen.
It is incredible how much dead vegetation builds up in the wiper motor/ cabin filter void. Definately worth keeping under control.
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
Hi Brian,
I don't quite understand the need to bend the wiper arm, surely it is easier to move the arm back by one or two splines on the spindle to bring it back from the screen frame.
Can I suggest you examine the seal arrangement around the centre wiper spindle. The rubber/plastic boot that locates onto the spindle is supposed to make a water tight seal with the plastic cowling. From the top things look OK but by feeling underneath there is a considerable gap which will allow an un-restricted flow of water through to beneath the cowl. I filled the recess around the spindle with black silicon sealant and sealed it off. Even if you introduce a sheet of tarpaulin as Mike has done, preventing some water ingress has got to help.
When at Brum I regret not examining the way Mike had sealed off the area, I guess the tarpaulin wrapped around the stay bar , does it then simply hang right down the back of the engine. I did look at this as an alternative at the time (not knowing Mike had already done it) but could not see a way of making a neat job.
I guess this job is nearly finished now and looking a jolly sight smarter
Regards Phil
I don't quite understand the need to bend the wiper arm, surely it is easier to move the arm back by one or two splines on the spindle to bring it back from the screen frame.
Can I suggest you examine the seal arrangement around the centre wiper spindle. The rubber/plastic boot that locates onto the spindle is supposed to make a water tight seal with the plastic cowling. From the top things look OK but by feeling underneath there is a considerable gap which will allow an un-restricted flow of water through to beneath the cowl. I filled the recess around the spindle with black silicon sealant and sealed it off. Even if you introduce a sheet of tarpaulin as Mike has done, preventing some water ingress has got to help.
When at Brum I regret not examining the way Mike had sealed off the area, I guess the tarpaulin wrapped around the stay bar , does it then simply hang right down the back of the engine. I did look at this as an alternative at the time (not knowing Mike had already done it) but could not see a way of making a neat job.
I guess this job is nearly finished now and looking a jolly sight smarter
Regards Phil
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
That old bit of B&Q tarp is not pretty.
The guy who used to look after J44 in Bristol fitted it as he had frequently found water in spark plug wells. I wonder if the original early type design of the scuttle was modified on later cars?
Phil is correct that the tarp is just laid down the back of the engine. Any water off the scuttle tends to be guided down the back face of the plastic sheet and drops harmlessly to the ground rather than on to the top of the engine rocker covers. The appliance of Bristol science.
Rather unfortunate that the car came out of the factory without adequate protection. Prior to the lash up being fitted, if I used a car wash, the car would develop misfires as I drove away. too much stray water flying around. Tarp fitted, no more misfires.
B&Q 10. Jaguar 0, in this round. Sad `eh?
Mike
The guy who used to look after J44 in Bristol fitted it as he had frequently found water in spark plug wells. I wonder if the original early type design of the scuttle was modified on later cars?
Phil is correct that the tarp is just laid down the back of the engine. Any water off the scuttle tends to be guided down the back face of the plastic sheet and drops harmlessly to the ground rather than on to the top of the engine rocker covers. The appliance of Bristol science.
Rather unfortunate that the car came out of the factory without adequate protection. Prior to the lash up being fitted, if I used a car wash, the car would develop misfires as I drove away. too much stray water flying around. Tarp fitted, no more misfires.
B&Q 10. Jaguar 0, in this round. Sad `eh?
Mike
X350 Co-ordinator
2004 XJR
2004 XJR
Re: Removing engine bay stay bar
I looked at moving the wiper arm on the spline, but it was then too close to the other wiper blade, so a gentle twist in the vice should surfice. The inner rubber/plastic boot on the wiper spindle is quite a close fit and as I expect to take it off again at some point, then my wife has supplied some very pretty plastic sheet to run from the staybar down the back of the engine (approx a foot wide).
I took the fan/drive belt off today, relatively easy, and there are slight cracks in the rubber, so it is now parcelled up in the boot as a spare. Its a hell of a big thing, so after drawing the belt run to be sure, I refitted the new one, only minor changes in the part number, so may well give the age of it.
I checked all the idler pulleys for noisy bearings and all sounded fine, then struggled to fit the belt over the moving idler. I had used a 30mm combination spanner to move the idler and release the belt off the top of the steering pump pulley, then let the spanner sit against the air filter box (30mm for its length rather than fit), only moving it to get the belt past it.
So I fitted the belt to all the pulleys first and then dropped it off the strg pump pulley again and it slipper easily onto the moving idler (using double jointed hands and a long screwdriver). With the belt in place and checked to see that it was correctly positioned a quick start-stop to centralise it on the pulleys, and then a run down the road, a private road so no salt.
Tomorrow I hope to bend the wiper arm and check the wheel alignment again, hopefully still OK, as I need to sort out my daily driver for its MOT and suspect I'll be replacing the front uprights due to excessive stub axle wear, so need to use the alignment gear again before returning it.
Roll on the good driving weather as the S type is ready now and the MkII is booked on 4 local rallies and is ready.
Brian
I took the fan/drive belt off today, relatively easy, and there are slight cracks in the rubber, so it is now parcelled up in the boot as a spare. Its a hell of a big thing, so after drawing the belt run to be sure, I refitted the new one, only minor changes in the part number, so may well give the age of it.
I checked all the idler pulleys for noisy bearings and all sounded fine, then struggled to fit the belt over the moving idler. I had used a 30mm combination spanner to move the idler and release the belt off the top of the steering pump pulley, then let the spanner sit against the air filter box (30mm for its length rather than fit), only moving it to get the belt past it.
So I fitted the belt to all the pulleys first and then dropped it off the strg pump pulley again and it slipper easily onto the moving idler (using double jointed hands and a long screwdriver). With the belt in place and checked to see that it was correctly positioned a quick start-stop to centralise it on the pulleys, and then a run down the road, a private road so no salt.
Tomorrow I hope to bend the wiper arm and check the wheel alignment again, hopefully still OK, as I need to sort out my daily driver for its MOT and suspect I'll be replacing the front uprights due to excessive stub axle wear, so need to use the alignment gear again before returning it.
Roll on the good driving weather as the S type is ready now and the MkII is booked on 4 local rallies and is ready.
Brian
MY2000 3ltr S type manual standard car with leather seats, cruise control and mistral blue metallic paint.
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
1961 3.8 MkII manual, Indigo blue, nolonger runs on LPG, everything else uprated
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