I'm restoring a mk2, and the body repairs are 95% completed.
However a large part of the shell has surface rust to some degree or other and I'm struggling to get it back to bare metal.
I've used a number of techniques and my current one is to attack it with a cup shaped wire brush in an angle grinder to get the worst off, followed by repeated doses of 'Metal Ready' - an American product which dissolves rust and leaves a zinc phosphate etch primed surface.
The problem with this is that the Metal Ready is most effective if you can totally immerse the rusted parts at least overnight - for something like a bodyshell you can only paint it on and this is far less effective. It tends to dry before the rust has dissolved meaning you have to repeat the process many times and wirebrush the surface in between times to get the driied deposits off.
All in all this process is taking far too long and after months of work I have still not finished preparing the engine bay so I have been looking at alternatives. I dont want to risk shot blasting my precious metal as I have heard too many stories of panels and even whole bodyshells being ruined by over-enthusiastic blasters!
I have recently heard of a company called SurfaceProcessing whose website www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk shows they have an industrial scale classic car bodyshell stripping and refinishing process.
This looks very interesting indeed, and I am seriously considering paying around £1000 to get the shell chemically stripped completely free of rust, underseal, paint etc and then about the same again to get the electrophoretic undercoating baked on.
Anyone able to comment on the pros and cons of this?
Bare metal resto
Moderators:Aceman, ecosselynx
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PeteHickson
- Posts:8
- Joined:Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:00 pm
Hi David,
I decided to go with the Surface Processing route, and joined the waiting list which at the time was about 8 months.
However during the wait other things got in the way and the money I had put aside was used up so I have reluctantly had to put this project on hold for a while.
But I still think it is the only way to achieve the level of rustproofing that I want for my Mk2.
I have been dismantling some modern cars this year ( a sideline of mine!) and have had to cut into one or two box sections and been amazed to see the electrophoretic primer used on modern cars gets right into the most inaccessible box section internal structures completely, absolutely 100% coverage.
The paint is very thin, only a few microns, so it gets drawn into seams etc and can coat internal threads without clogging them.
This is what I want for my car, and I'm prepared to wait until finances allow me to proceed. Anything less would be a compromise.
I still have some questions though - apparently even the original lead loading gets removed by this process, so there will be some finishing required after the e-coating is applied. I will have to choose whether to apply modern filler over the e-coating, or remove the coating in the areas needing lead-loading, to allow the lead to stick to the bare metal. This will obviously compromise the coating. I think the modern filler is probably the better solution.
Also I am in two minds about when to apply the top coats.
If the e-coated shell is not painted fairly quickly, then it is possible corrosion might get a grip, but if it is painted before the mechanical assemblies are refitted then it may get damaged during the fit-up.
I think probably I ought to get some top coat onto the shell asap, and be prepared to get any remedial work done on the paint once the mechanical parts are in place prior to fitting chrome etc.
Anyway I'm getting a bit ahead of myself now!
all the best
Pete
I decided to go with the Surface Processing route, and joined the waiting list which at the time was about 8 months.
However during the wait other things got in the way and the money I had put aside was used up so I have reluctantly had to put this project on hold for a while.
But I still think it is the only way to achieve the level of rustproofing that I want for my Mk2.
I have been dismantling some modern cars this year ( a sideline of mine!) and have had to cut into one or two box sections and been amazed to see the electrophoretic primer used on modern cars gets right into the most inaccessible box section internal structures completely, absolutely 100% coverage.
The paint is very thin, only a few microns, so it gets drawn into seams etc and can coat internal threads without clogging them.
This is what I want for my car, and I'm prepared to wait until finances allow me to proceed. Anything less would be a compromise.
I still have some questions though - apparently even the original lead loading gets removed by this process, so there will be some finishing required after the e-coating is applied. I will have to choose whether to apply modern filler over the e-coating, or remove the coating in the areas needing lead-loading, to allow the lead to stick to the bare metal. This will obviously compromise the coating. I think the modern filler is probably the better solution.
Also I am in two minds about when to apply the top coats.
If the e-coated shell is not painted fairly quickly, then it is possible corrosion might get a grip, but if it is painted before the mechanical assemblies are refitted then it may get damaged during the fit-up.
I think probably I ought to get some top coat onto the shell asap, and be prepared to get any remedial work done on the paint once the mechanical parts are in place prior to fitting chrome etc.
Anyway I'm getting a bit ahead of myself now!
all the best
Pete
Pete,
Good to hear your update.
I think its definately best to hold out and get the Surface Processing treatment.
I would go with top coating and then being prepared to rectify any slight damage as and when.
When completed you could look at injecting waxoyl or similar into sills /cavities and coating the underside with wax rather than underseal.
Good to hear your update.
I think its definately best to hold out and get the Surface Processing treatment.
I would go with top coating and then being prepared to rectify any slight damage as and when.
When completed you could look at injecting waxoyl or similar into sills /cavities and coating the underside with wax rather than underseal.
For mild surface rust, personally I find Neutrarust is pretty good. Just brush on and wait for an hour. Just Google the name and you'll find it.
I haven't tried it myself yet, but the Bilt Hamber products have been getting a good press in the classic car magazines of late. They do immersion stuff and paint on gels. Any recent Practical Classics will have a two page article/advert in.
BUT, the SPL route is the ultimate. I wish I could go that way, but at my age, I don't want to start a complete strip down. I might not see it back on the road again. There's some interesting completely renovated shells on offer in Holland though. So maybe next Winter, eh!
Johnny M
I haven't tried it myself yet, but the Bilt Hamber products have been getting a good press in the classic car magazines of late. They do immersion stuff and paint on gels. Any recent Practical Classics will have a two page article/advert in.
BUT, the SPL route is the ultimate. I wish I could go that way, but at my age, I don't want to start a complete strip down. I might not see it back on the road again. There's some interesting completely renovated shells on offer in Holland though. So maybe next Winter, eh!
Johnny M
HI,
I read these posts with interest, my bonnet and boot both had severe micro blistering when I got the car, I have had the bonnet louvered and both stripped back to bare metal, fortunatley they were sound with no filler. they were preped with proper base coat primer (several) and then two packed to a really great finish.
Chem cleaning can be very intrusive as can even a mild shot/sand/grit blast, especially on 40+ year old panels.
Talk to George at TVR Jag specialists on 01628 781 787, My new paint is stunning.
Best,
Ian.
I read these posts with interest, my bonnet and boot both had severe micro blistering when I got the car, I have had the bonnet louvered and both stripped back to bare metal, fortunatley they were sound with no filler. they were preped with proper base coat primer (several) and then two packed to a really great finish.
Chem cleaning can be very intrusive as can even a mild shot/sand/grit blast, especially on 40+ year old panels.
Talk to George at TVR Jag specialists on 01628 781 787, My new paint is stunning.
Best,
Ian.
Hi guys, i realise this is an old thread now, but would like to pass on my experience so far with surface processing, and get some views about painters. I started preparing my shell back in january, and it is now fully stripped, with all weld repairs hopefully done. I deliverd it to surface processing last week, and i must say they have been more than helpfull so far . the guy i met (whose name escapes me) showed me around the premises, and I saw the results of each stage of the process for myself. The results of the chemical dipping process are remarkable. It removes absolutely everything. i saw a mark 2 cortina estate that had been through the 3 stage dipping process, then neutralised. The bare metal was a clean, dull grey finish. Where there was previous surface rust, the panel was left with a slightly pock-marked effect. Where there had been rusted area's of metal, the chemical process had simply eaten away all of the rust, back to the nearest sound steel. I then inspected a 1980's Lamborghini Countach shell that had been dipped, and then coated. The finish was somewhat like a stove enamel effect, but with a relatively thin coat of paint. This meant that, for instance, the pock - marked effect that i saw on the Cortina was still evident, and would need filling, as would the area around a weld replacement. Modern paint and high build type undercoat products would clearly be best after this process - i can see no point in having this done, then removing large sections just for the authenticity of lead loading. I chose this route because my shell was mostly sound, but needing attention to a large number of smaller areas. The deciding factor for me was the condition inside the chassis rails and inside the cills. whilst repairing a couple of damaged section of chassis rail, where the car had either been hard grounded, of badly jacked (it spent its first 25 years in Rhodesia), there were large deposits of rust and scale inside the rails on both sides. Assuming the base metal is sound then the surface processing treatmnet will get inside all of these potential problem area's and completely remove all of the remaining rust and scale that i couldn't get at. Hopefully providing a totally rust free, and totally inert shell to work from!
Anyway, i hopefully get the car back in a couple of weeks, so will post some before and after pictures when i get the car back. That leads me on to the second point - can anyone recomend a good paint shop that won't charge a fortune? Had a quote from J.D. Classics, Ball park figure of £25k. Out of my price range i'm affraid. Spoke to George at TVR - good recomendation Ian, thanks, very helpfull guy, but still quoting £10k, which is frankly double what i was hoping to pay. Any views or recomendations ??
- feel like i've written war and peace for a first post, Nick P
Anyway, i hopefully get the car back in a couple of weeks, so will post some before and after pictures when i get the car back. That leads me on to the second point - can anyone recomend a good paint shop that won't charge a fortune? Had a quote from J.D. Classics, Ball park figure of £25k. Out of my price range i'm affraid. Spoke to George at TVR - good recomendation Ian, thanks, very helpfull guy, but still quoting £10k, which is frankly double what i was hoping to pay. Any views or recomendations ??
- feel like i've written war and peace for a first post, Nick P
Nice bit of info there Bignose. I for one will be interested in your next post when you get your hull back. I still have ambitions of eventually using SPL on my Mk2, but haven't even started to strip her yet. More interested in temporarily patching her up for one more MoT and putting a few miles on her first. I gotta REALLY fall in love with her before I spend that sort of bread on her.
I'd be very interested to see a breakdown of costs for the SPL process though. I guess mine would have to be done in stages, as was the current Practical Mechanics rebuild, so that she gets a thorough derusting before any welding is done. I doubt that mine will be as bad as theirs, but the SPL process is bound to search out some previously unknown nasties.
I hope yours doesn't turn out too bad. It's an expensive way to find out that the hull is beyond your repair budget.
Johnny.
I'd be very interested to see a breakdown of costs for the SPL process though. I guess mine would have to be done in stages, as was the current Practical Mechanics rebuild, so that she gets a thorough derusting before any welding is done. I doubt that mine will be as bad as theirs, but the SPL process is bound to search out some previously unknown nasties.
I hope yours doesn't turn out too bad. It's an expensive way to find out that the hull is beyond your repair budget.
Johnny.
Funnily enough that had been my plan for this year, but I got carried away with a quick bit of Winter maintenance! - My shell is sound, but the SPL might bring out a bit more repair work that I have so sfar missed. Breakdown of costs is quite straighforward, apprx £800 for stripping, then £800 for coating + VAT. If you take it away after stripping for additional repairs, then its another £500 for a re-dip before coating. A Cokney in Cerrigydrudion Johnny? - small word, had good friends in Capel Garmon, now in Rowen !
Ta for that Nick. It's not beyond my means, but I'll still defer for a bit yet. As I said, I need to learn to love it first.
Spent most of my life overseas with the Army. Went back to "The Smoke" on retirement, but didn't like it. Now in Heaven. My conservatory overlooks open fields with Mountains in the distance.
Johnny
Spent most of my life overseas with the Army. Went back to "The Smoke" on retirement, but didn't like it. Now in Heaven. My conservatory overlooks open fields with Mountains in the distance.
Johnny
Having now had 5 bodyshells through the stripping & E-Coating process, I suspect I am in a better position than almost anyone to comment. I started off as a really enthusiastic fan of the process, having first come across it being done by a company in Sweden.
From all the shells I've had fully processed I can honestly say that not one has come back to us without the process going wrong somewhere.
To be fair, on the first cars we had problems with, they did try to put the work right or compensated us for the rectification work required.
The initial problems were associated with poor handling of a MK2 shell by staff at the plant. A number of bashes & dents appeared in what had previously been good panels. Most iritating being large dents in the sill & floor pan where a fork lift had been used. Despite swearing blind that fork lifts were no longer used, another shell came back later with similar dents. My problem was that I was convinced the process was the answer to the age old problem of stripping paint materials & rust efficiently from classic body shells & persevered with it in the hope that ulimately we would be able to sort out the recurring damage problems.
Ultimately, however , the first MK2 shell we had had done started to develop rust in the folded seams such as door skins 2 years after completion. We had to put a full set of new factory doors I'd been saving for another project on to this car. The boot lid & petrol flap were similarly corroded. It in fact appeared that the rusting was in some way actually accelerated by the process. This car had been used as a daily driver in Germany & was therefore exposed to surface water, salt etc. Nevertheless it wasn't the areas you would expect that were re-acting, but only the folded seams. Well protected underbody areas, wheel arches etc were fine.
The last shell we had done was an E-Type FHC. This had been badly accident damaged & repaired in its early days & was also badly corroded in places. This therefore we had stripped before doing any repairs & not E-coated. In many ways this was more successful & I would consider doing it again this way. some damage to the shell wouldn't then matter so much & we would have control of the protective coatings.
To sum up, I have found the experience hugely annoying since it should have worked well & it seemed in my view a lack of control on the various parts of the process that caused the problems. Management were highly plausible but totally incapable of getting to the nub of the problems & once one starts getting told that no one else ever has a problem, that's when you give up. I have various theories as to what's going wrong & they all come back to the human element. It's a nasty, wet, smelly uncomfortable job to do, but it needs care & attention to detail & getting people who are willing to do a messy job like this & do it sufficiently carefully, is by no means easy.
If anyone else has used the process more recently & found the problems have been solved I'd be delighted to hear. I still believe that properly managed the system should work well & I'm even considering sending a shell to Sweden to have it done. But are they in the end any better? Who knows.
Derek
From all the shells I've had fully processed I can honestly say that not one has come back to us without the process going wrong somewhere.
To be fair, on the first cars we had problems with, they did try to put the work right or compensated us for the rectification work required.
The initial problems were associated with poor handling of a MK2 shell by staff at the plant. A number of bashes & dents appeared in what had previously been good panels. Most iritating being large dents in the sill & floor pan where a fork lift had been used. Despite swearing blind that fork lifts were no longer used, another shell came back later with similar dents. My problem was that I was convinced the process was the answer to the age old problem of stripping paint materials & rust efficiently from classic body shells & persevered with it in the hope that ulimately we would be able to sort out the recurring damage problems.
Ultimately, however , the first MK2 shell we had had done started to develop rust in the folded seams such as door skins 2 years after completion. We had to put a full set of new factory doors I'd been saving for another project on to this car. The boot lid & petrol flap were similarly corroded. It in fact appeared that the rusting was in some way actually accelerated by the process. This car had been used as a daily driver in Germany & was therefore exposed to surface water, salt etc. Nevertheless it wasn't the areas you would expect that were re-acting, but only the folded seams. Well protected underbody areas, wheel arches etc were fine.
The last shell we had done was an E-Type FHC. This had been badly accident damaged & repaired in its early days & was also badly corroded in places. This therefore we had stripped before doing any repairs & not E-coated. In many ways this was more successful & I would consider doing it again this way. some damage to the shell wouldn't then matter so much & we would have control of the protective coatings.
To sum up, I have found the experience hugely annoying since it should have worked well & it seemed in my view a lack of control on the various parts of the process that caused the problems. Management were highly plausible but totally incapable of getting to the nub of the problems & once one starts getting told that no one else ever has a problem, that's when you give up. I have various theories as to what's going wrong & they all come back to the human element. It's a nasty, wet, smelly uncomfortable job to do, but it needs care & attention to detail & getting people who are willing to do a messy job like this & do it sufficiently carefully, is by no means easy.
If anyone else has used the process more recently & found the problems have been solved I'd be delighted to hear. I still believe that properly managed the system should work well & I'm even considering sending a shell to Sweden to have it done. But are they in the end any better? Who knows.
Derek
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